817 - Q&A: Identity, Overcoming Triggers, and Caring Too Much About What Your Wife Thinks with Sathiya and Shawn
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[00:00:00] Hey, Hey, what's up my man? It's Sathya Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. We're so glad you guys are tuning in to a Q& A episode today. If you're new to this, this is kind of something we're testing out here where, uh, myself and my lead coach, Sean, uh, we get to go back and forth on some recovery subjects.
We talked a little bit about life in general, and then we bring listeners of the show live onto the call with us. And we do some coaching. We got some really good stuff lined up today. It's going to be an incredible show. Super glad you are here. Sean, [00:01:00] what's going on, man? Welcome. It's great to be here, man.
It's uh, been a year since being with deep clean a year since being in the Czech Republic. So yeah. Yeah, that is crazy, man. Crazy how fast a year goes by. Uh, what's been the biggest thing that you've. You've learned the last year about yourself. Yeah. Oh, man. I'd say simply put that. I can do hard things. I think I've done more hard things in this last year than in many other years combined.
Um, but, uh, the word I got for this past year from the Lord of, you know, being in a foreign country and just, you know, Feeling humiliated and insecure with the language and all that. It's just that the word I got was listen. And I think it's really enhanced, uh, many areas of my life, but, uh, I had many wrestles with, do I have to keep listening, Lord?
Can I finally speak? Can I, can I have some, some time to have some people to talk to? So it's, it's definitely been a wrestle, but, uh, learned so [00:02:00] much. And even just this week, after being here a year, I felt the Lord nudged me of like, what this next year is going to look like as well. Cool. Yeah, it is funny how you, you know, we have these like big grandiose visions and ideas and that's what we think about when we make the decision to move forward, right?
Even if it's radical, like moving your family overseas and then you never really fully account for all the challenges that come with it, right? Learning a new language or. You know, whatever it might be. Um, and it kind of reminds me even of recovery. Like recovery is very much like that. When people make that decision, they're thinking about the healthy relationship.
They're thinking about the confidence, the connection with God, the better sex life, and then it's like, man, this is actually pretty hard. I got to confront some of the skeletons in my closet. Some of the lies that have become really. Comfortable and familiar. And, uh, yeah, it's a good, it's just a good metaphor for life in general.
Um, I, I want to mention this really quick. I interviewed [00:03:00] John Deloney yesterday, which is, was a really cool experience and stay tuned for that, that interview. He, he was afterwards, he was like, dude, he's like, you pushed all my buttons. And I was like, Oh, what? And he's like, no, it was like, it was good. He's like, you just.
You got, we got talking on like all the things he's been like thinking about lately and he's really passionate about it and he can get really passionate. So it was, it was a fun interview. Um, but, uh, but the one thing he talked about and, uh, sorry, I'm, I'm just, I'm going to switch out. I know we said we were going to talk about something today, but I'm going to switch it up.
Um, but we got talking about identities. And the whole recovery system, this is, this is what reminded me of this, um, which is like, you know, the 12 step program, which is amazing and has changed, gosh, I mean, millions of lives 12 step their first, one of the first things is like, um, you know, I'm Cynthia, I'm an alcoholic and we got talking about why that can be so dangerous and we both agreed that was like, we love 12 step, but that's the one thing that we can't really, you know, Get on board with because of the whole identity thing.[00:04:00]
And he used a really interesting metaphor. He said, today's society were all like a bunch of helium balloons with no tether, like somebody just cut all the strings. And so everybody's kind of forming identities around sexuality, gender. life, you know, whatever it is, and you end up with a very kind of convoluted sense of identity.
It was really, really interesting. And it just got me thinking about what we do with our, our guys, right. And the work we do, um, you know, that's our third pillar of recovery is really detaching from that identity of being an addict and the person that, you know, had all those struggles and really stepping into a new identity.
So I asked him a question that I wanted to ask you, Sean, which is, what do you think are the elements. Healthy solid identity. Yeah, that's a loaded question, man. I love it. Yeah. If I look at my my own journey. It's kind of Paul. Paul writes often in scripture, like [00:05:00] when you have knowledge and understanding, you'll grow in confidence.
I think there's an element of our identity has to be rooted in the confidence of what it has been finished. The finished work in Christ. Like, if we don't have the knowledge of scripture. That then leads to an understanding of it. It's really hard to be confident in who God says we are and who God says he is.
So if I, if I was going to like simply answer that question, it would be that. Um, and that's been my journey, you know, as I really got discipled in a healthy manner, as, as I started to not just. Read the word, but understand it. When I started to faithfully apply what I'm reading, I really sense like I used to struggle with the identity lie that nothing I do ever works.
And it was really boiled down to I am. I'm inadequate. Um, and it wasn't until. Three years ago that I really was able to nip that fully in the bud. And that was something that was a big part of that season was being discipled for probably the first time in a really clear, concise way. [00:06:00] And growing in that understanding and knowledge of God's word, his character, what he says is true and not, not, not trying to wonder is that, is that really true God, like really growing in that knowledge and understanding.
Yeah, that's so good, man. Yeah, like identity is so complicated, isn't it? Like I used to, I remember when I kind of had my first real encounter with God and realized like how much he loved me and that that shift in my identity that came from it. Like, You know, I'm loved just because of who I am. That was like such a foreign concept to me.
Um, cause I lived in such a works based performance environment growing up. Not, not just at home, like home wasn't even that bad, but it was actually where I went to school and all that kind of stuff was very like workspace anyway. Um, I used to like, love that kind of concept where it's like, you know, I'm a, I'm a child of God, I'm a son of God.
I still love it, but it is interesting. Like when you become a father. Or you, you become a business owner and you realize that like [00:07:00] identities just gets so intermingled, right? Because there's not, there's not, it's, I mean, in theory, yes, I'm a son of God and that's always my like primary core identity. But, you know, if I think about the identity or the hat that I'm wearing, you know, 40 hours a week, it's business owner, CEO, deep clean, you know, the other 40 hours of the week that I'm awake, it's a husband, father, like it's very, it's interesting.
Really interesting to think about it. What would you say are the are the elements of maybe a bad identity? Like what? What's what? What are the leading indicators where it's like, ooh, that that's a that's a belief or that's something that's going to need to shift in someone's life if they really want to recover.
Yeah, I think it would be rooted in feelings like that helium balloon analogy is really good because we hear all the time guys are kind of clinging on to something that feels good. And it's very circumstantial. Um, I think if we form our identities around something along the lines of [00:08:00] I feel this way, This is, this is, this is what feels good.
And I believe it's going to keep on going and it's not rooted in truth. It's not rooted in scripture, no Holy Spirit conviction. I think that's a really dangerous road to go down. And I see that a lot where guys are clinging onto things because it feels good, even, even for three to six months. And they think like, that's the lock.
Like I got this, like, this is what is going to work forever. And then that thing dies or it leaves or whatever happens. And they're, they're floundering. Yeah, it's interesting how hard it is, and I, I mean, truthfully, I say this studying my own life, how hard it is to let go, like, to let go, you know, especially when we talk about identities, right?
Like if you've, if you've cultivated an identity a certain way, and all of a sudden that identity is lost, uh, or you have to let go of it, you know, like, I think about something like losing a job, right? You lose a job, you lose a job. And all of a sudden, like, boom, that just got, that's a rug that just got pulled out from underneath your feet.
And, uh, especially for a guy that can really, I can really like hit in the heart, but then I, I [00:09:00] mean, I remember early on, I don't do as much coaching directly with our clients now, but early on, I remember a couple of clients in particular. And they were like so close to like crossing that finish line. And there would always be a fight because they, there was just this familiarity and this comfortability with that old identity, even though it had caused them so much pain, And so many issues and so much destruction, it was still the familiarity of it.
And the fear of losing what was comfortable almost outweighed this new life. And again, most times we were able to push them over the line, so to speak, and keep them on track. But, um, loss is like a really scary thing, isn't it? It is. Yeah. Yeah. It's the,
when we lose something, you know, we've created like a friendship with it, we've created a safety with it, a comfort with it. So the idea of losing it. It just, we don't have a way, like a template of what life looks like without it. So we really [00:10:00] do need to have really healthy counsel in our lives of people of inspiration to glean from who have done it.
And probably not your coach or your counselor, like somebody who's not doing this professionally, who's a lot more relatable, who can be a part of your life, not just during a coaching call. I think that's so vital. And that's one of the main advices I give guys when they're kind of at that crossing road.
It's like. How are you feeding yourself on a regular basis with stories of guys who were like homeless kicked out of their house and they're healthy today, man. Like glean from that stuff. Let that get you over the hump. It's so valuable. Yeah, it's such a man. I like what you said there because that that was that was what made us very different early on when we started with our spotter system is people were always like, Hey, so if I join your program, do I just get an accountability partner?
How does that work? And we were like, Well, not really. What we actually prefers people plug into existing friendships, right? And and add the accountability component. It. That way, once you're done the program, you still [00:11:00] have something there, you know, um, otherwise it just becomes like a four month, like hoorah.
And then you have to try to reintegrate into normal life and all your friends are there, but there's no accountability. They don't know what's going on. That that part is really, really important. And I would say with our successful clients, the one thing that I do observe. Very often is there is a community life beyond the recovery community that we provide them, you know, and I think that, I mean, that, that provides so many things, right?
Like connection and a sense of meaning. Uh, but I think having accountability layered into existing connections is really, really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. When we fail. If we're not really rooted in the word in the Holy Spirit, having full reign of our life and good, safe friendships were then left to our own devices to come up with what's true about ourselves.
And that is really dangerous. Yeah, it's true. It's really true. And it's actually a good point, like tying the two [00:12:00] concepts together. You know, when you have a community that is seeking truth and believes the truth together, that becomes really powerful. Because I know for me, I found this, um, Maybe the last year or two where my spiritual life has been a lot more Individual and isolated like in the home, but like basically my wife and I aren't part of a small group or anything like that We're just starting to plug in just with the season of having judah and all the other stuff that we were kind of you know going through and Man, it's different and you you can really lose your sense of self and I do find that that community can be really helpful as sort of like Especially when they're anchored in the word of god They listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.
You know, when, when those things are all in place, it can be super, super valuable to, you know, even on those tough days to pick you up and to kind of set you straight, right? Cause otherwise you can, you can fall astray so quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, if I can just, from my own experience, you know, when we were in Halifax, you know, we moved there a year later, COVID [00:13:00] happened, you know, Nova Scotia was the.
I think it was the hardest place to live in during COVID with the lockdowns and like 90 percent vaccine rage. It's a lot of chaos within broken families and friendships because of opinions. So it was pretty hostile. And it really, I really struggled in that season with that more, more times than not agreeing with that lie being in business for myself for the first time, like when something went wrong in business.
That lie, nothing I do ever works. And it ties to so many childhood things. But what I realized is that in those moments, when you're left to your own devices, you don't have someone to just hug and bounce something off of. And I'd say in person is going to be your best bet. One bad thing feels like 10.
And all the good things you're doing feels like one and just this imbalance happens because the enemy just wants you to feel so condemned for that one mistake that it just, I see that all the time, like someone makes one mistake and it feels like everything good they're doing goes down the toilet.
Yeah, man, it's so true. I, [00:14:00] I wrestle with that all the time because, you know, we have a decent following on Instagram now and the comments, man, that's what they always say, right? Don't read the comments. And, uh, like I did an Instagram live yesterday and honestly, anytime I jump onto a live, it's so amazing because people are just like flood the comments with like, I love your stuff.
You're doing great work. Keep it up. Like you're amazing. Da da da da. And so I, I'm always like so encouraged. But one guy wrote a comment yesterday and he's like, I think at the time there were only 17 people watching. So he was like, Only 17 viewers just quit something like that, and it's so like I walked away from the live.
We did. We did a Q and A. It was really fun. And like I said, tons of like really encouraging comments. And then like that one comment, just like that was the one I was thinking about afterwards. I had to pause like I just thought myself and be like, no, like who cares about this one guy? Who, you know, probably has a whole bunch of issues.
If he's going out of his way to make those kinds of comments, I just helped so many people, you know, like we had over 300 people that tuned into the live and it's, [00:15:00] it's just crazy how our brain can like just deviate, can just veer off course so quickly. Um, so I think, especially when it comes to, you know, anchoring yourself in the truth and really believing the truth about who God says you are and what you know to be true, you have to fight for it sometimes.
Cause, um, The world does not allow you to believe the truth very easily these days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the hard work that real right recovery and identity requires. I think we often think about hard work in the wrong places, like, you know, proving ourselves to God and earning love. And we get so burnt out that we don't have any energy and capacity left to actually fight the battles that are meant to be fought.
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it's so futile and I think that's that's for me at least when I think about my own recovery That was definitely the one thing I realized is it wasn't like I wish it I wish it was but it wasn't like you know what the pleasure of pornography is just no longer worth the pleasure of [00:16:00] It wasn't really that it was more like, you know what, it's so exhausting living in this secret life.
It's so exhausting to try to cover it up. It's so exhausting spending all my spiritual time and energy, repenting and asking God for forgiveness. Sometimes it's just the exhaustion of it that makes you realize like, what am I doing here? Like how long can I actually keep this up before something's going to break?
You know, and, and that, that is, that was a better trade off for me. It was like, yeah, forget the, like it was the pain of the exhaustion that made me go, okay, you know what? I am going to pursue a better life. And in those hard moments, Reminding myself of how exhausting it was and how painful it was. Uh, that's the thing that really kept me on track because I think, you know, um, Yeah, sometimes the pleasure of those goals that are like in the distant future or maybe even not so distant future But they're not as present as you being able to get a quick dopamine hit watching some porn Yeah, um, sometimes you you're just not going to make the right decision on that exchange And so yeah, I think That's something we always do with people when they want to talk to us is like, okay, what's [00:17:00] porn actually costing you?
And like the answers are usually pretty weak at first. It's like, oh, well, you know, it costs me some time and my wife doesn't love it. And it's like, no, what's the, what's the actual cost? You know, when we start to dig and it's like, dang, yeah, actually porn is like, Destroying my life. You know, people don't even realize it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. There's so much to be said about like our, our actual motivations. I was messaging, messaging with a guy the other day in the community and he's, he's a great guy. I think he's come a long way. I didn't get to work with him personally, but I think there's still some, I think he's like a few months sober with masturbation and I think he's been sober from porn for quite a lot longer.
So some great results, but there's still some roots there that he's trying to work through. And I was just sharing with him like. One of the things that I've learned as I've moved to the Czech Republic is my identity has had to strengthen in the area of why am I going to be honoring to women? Like, it's not just quitting porn.
It's not just like being a porn recovery coach. [00:18:00] Like, I'm now in a country that meets my arousal template more than probably any place in the world. And is it is amplified my identity to be a safe person for these women that have not really had safe men in their life before. And I was just asking him like, what is your motivation to do this?
Not look at it like not, not look at an attractive woman in a lustful way. Like a lot of times we just say, I shouldn't do that. I, I, I'm not that kind of person, but we don't really think about like, why, like what is motivating that, like what motivates our identity to be a safe person or to be an honoring person.
So that was a really interesting conversation. And it just reminded me of how far I've come in that area as well. Of yeah. Man, like my identity now has like its own mission statement in some ways of like my identity as a, as a foreigner in the Czech Republic, isn't just, I'm here for ministry. It's like, I'm here to be a safe person for the people that have never been safe before.
Dude, it's so good. It's that, that's a really good little nugget actually of wisdom, just of how [00:19:00] people can handle these higher temptation environments. Cause I, I've been doing this at the gym because I, um, The gym is just crazy. You know, like what, what kind of constitutes gym attire these days? Is it just gotten really scantily.
Um, and I'm really trying hard to not be like, Oh, all these girls dressing in this, you know, skimpy clothing and tight skin, whatever. Um, and really trying to be, ask myself the same question. Like, what would it be like for a girl at the gym to have an experience with a guy who's not checking her out?
Who's looking her in the eyes or, or who's just doing his own thing. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to make eye contact with every girl there. That's not what I mean. But I had this, I had this moment the other day, I was, I was passing through one of the doors within the gym and there was a girl who was kind of coming out.
So I, I held the door open for her and I just gave like a really friendly smile. And she, I could tell she felt like really uncomfortable by it. And it was, it was just like, uh, I was just trying to treat her like any other person. [00:20:00] Um, but I could tell she was like a little bit caught off guard. Cause she's obviously, you know, just not used to it at the gym.
Right. She's kind of probably used to the dog eyes and guys doing, you know, who knows what. Um, but I often do remind myself of that, you know, when I'm at the gym of like, man, these women, like don't, they don't have these experiences, you know, they don't know what it's like for someone to just look them in the eyes and say, See beauty and not see an object or something to chase or check out or whatever.
And, um, yeah, I think that's a, it's a really good tip you gave just to be conscious of that, that identity that you're after, even in those moments of high temptation, that, that goes a really long way. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome, man. Such a great testimony of just how feeling safe is so uncommon. Yeah, that's just scary, right?
Yeah, it is. I remember I was at a men's event. This is like earlier in my recovery Maybe maybe mid midpoint and one of the guys was like he's like you should be able to walk up to the most Beautiful girl at the church at [00:21:00] church, you know on a Sunday And say hi to her and have a conversation with her like anyone else.
And that was like the first time I had heard anyone talk about that. Like something like that, a men's event because all the messages before, before we're like bounce the eyes and, you know, like avoid those conversations. If you're going to be tempted. And he just cast like such a biblical ideal of like, you know, like how, how did Jesus look at attractive women?
Right. Jesus found women attractive. You know, what did he do? Well, he didn't treat them any differently. Right. He showed them love and care and kindness. He didn't back down. He wasn't maybe, maybe, maybe if he knew he was, you know, in a weak moment or having a vulnerable day, who knows, maybe he was making different decisions, but generally speaking, I have to imagine Jesus was probably, you know, able to treat every single person With love and with care and, uh, with God's heart, even, uh, even on those weaker moments.
So anyways, it's good thoughts, man. It's good thoughts. I think, um, I think we better answer some.
We got a couple guys patiently waiting Oscar over to you, man. Awesome. So our [00:22:00] first guest is Joe. Joe, what's happening? Okay. So I've been clean for porn for about six months now.
So it's been really good for me, but something has taken that really been like it's been taking a toll on me as a result. Like, everywhere I go, I run into triggers, and my mind makes everything seem like a trigger, if that makes sense. Even if it's not sexual in nature, like, my, like, even things that weren't a trigger before, I was addicted to porn, now have become a trigger.
I don't know how to explain it, but just, it's like my mind loves to overthink, like, what's like a trigger and what's not. So how do I turn my mind to Overcome something that's like, how do I overcome these tricks? How do I overcome triggers? Yeah. Well for starters congrats on six months He said right? Yes, sir.
That's a big deal, man What what was the biggest or what do you think is the biggest contributing factor to your success the last six months? What's been the most [00:23:00] helpful the I think it's the drive to be um not have like a Like a secret in my life because yeah, it's been a secret in my life for like You Six or seven, six or seven years.
Okay. Okay. And once I want to get married, I don't want to have that issue with a significant other. Yeah, a hundred percent. And did you, did you quit cold turkey? Are you doing a program? Seeing a therapist? Anything like that? I would say cold turkey. Like I've been following your instagram page and your emails and like for any tips or help and I'll reach out if I need to.
But it's been mostly cold turkey. Awesome. Yeah. So that that's actually a pretty helpful clue as to maybe why you're dealing with some of this stuff. Um, what is likely happened is you have started a change in your body's physiology. That's really exciting. Um, and I'm sure you're noticing a bunch of positive benefits from quitting pornography as well, right?
Um, typically, if you [00:24:00] don't have some sort of process where you are getting a little bit more underneath the surface, you know, whether it's resolving traumas, understanding your arousal template a bit better, belief systems, emotional intelligence. Um, this can happen where your brain, your brain has not, there hasn't been a resolution to some of these deeper fundamental needs and desires of yours.
And so your brain starts to get really creative, right? Where you're probably looking at stuff and you're like, this isn't even sexual. And like you said, like this never used to be a thing. Why is it all of a sudden a thing? That's really weird. Yeah. So that's because what's happened is you have these fundamental desires or needs.
That drove you to porn in the first place. Um, you basically told your brain and your body, we're not going to porn anymore, but you haven't told your brain or your body what we're actually gonna do about these needs and these desires. Um, and that that's a conglomerate of things. It's finding better ways or superior ways to get them met.
But sometimes it's actually, you know, pulling apart or teasing out some of [00:25:00] the trauma, some of the pain, some of the wounds that might be there. Um, that can often, you know, distort our ability to get those needs met in a healthy way. So what I would, what I would say to you is number one, whatever you're doing, keep it up because it got you this far, um, and you're doing some great stuff.
What I would say is probably missing here is a more roots based approach that is going to help you resolve those needs. Typically when people do our program, if they're with us until the six month mark. They're getting the opposite effect. So the things that used to trigger them don't trigger them anymore.
Like they're tempted a fraction of the time that they used to be because those needs and desires have been properly, you know, they're, they're being properly taken care of. Um, at a deeper level. So that would be, that's my initial thought based on what you've mentioned. Sean, what do you think? Yeah, Joe, great to meet you, man.
Awesome to hear about the six months. Um, I usually have, uh, something I share with guys when they've had a [00:26:00] level of sobriety and still have some struggles that are causing them to live in like constant hyper vigilancy, or maybe they know why they're doing it. They struggle because of all this trauma, but no one's ever helped them heal the trauma.
It's kind of like this madness to live in those states because it's really tiring. It's really hard. It's even a bit scary to some degree to wake up every day and not really know why you're getting triggered or what could trigger you. So what I would say for you, man, is, is this really neat, uh, I don't know if it's a metaphor or analogy, but thinking about triggers and temptations, almost like prophets, like God would send prophets into the world to tell about something that needed to change.
So when we have a temptation or a trigger, if we see it as a profit, trying to tell us something, it's going to give you a lot to introspect and say, why is that triggering? Why is that so powerful? Why is it controlling me? When did that start? Who told me that? Who taught me that? And it just gives us a lot of insight into how to get to those roots.
And it's just a, I don't say it becomes like [00:27:00] a game, but it certainly is a lot better to think of a temptation as, Hey, yeah. This is a profit trying to tell me something rather than, Oh no, this is happening. Why is this happening? This is so bad. And I think it just makes, uh, makes for a lot more calm and peace as you go throughout your day.
Not cause you're just, you're trying to be on guard to avoid temptations, but you're actually trying to say, why is this tempting and what would it look like to consider the deeper roots to this problem? Yeah. And the, the, what you'll find is that if you were to analyze, you know, all the triggers you had prior to trying to quit.
And then you took all the triggers now, like, you know, all the new triggers that have surfaced the last six months and we were to categorize them, um, based on some of these more deeper needs, you'd find that the categories are exactly the same. Um, there's, there's nothing new under the sun, so to speak.
It's just that they're manifesting differently. There's a little bit of a variation there. So, um, yeah, so I, I think this, this really just requires a little bit [00:28:00] more attention underneath the surface. Um, and there's lots of ways you can do that. Um, I'm trying to think of off the top of my head, what I would recommend.
So you're, um, you said you're single, right? Uh, currently, yes, I am. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. What are some of the, what are, what are some of the better ways to identify? Do you, when we're talking about this number one, is this making sense? And number two, do you have any. Any thoughts on what some of those deeper, uh, fundamental needs might be?
I have like thought about these things. I've been insecure about looks and occasionally my weight, cause I've gained a little bit of weight since I've been cold turkey. But, uh, uh, cause growing up, I didn't, I wasn't really, um, women were really attractive to me and I'd never really have dated. So I've dated women that I never even liked.
And so it's caused me to like, [00:29:00] I can't ever get like a, I can't ever get a girlfriend and I don't feel good about myself. And so that's what my main root issue is, is like looks and weight and all those other kinds of things. And, and, um, what, why have you gained weight the last six months? Like, did your eating patterns change after you stopped watching porn?
Like I've, um, I'll give a little backstory. So I, I originally lost 60 pounds, but then I gained like, I'd say 20, 30 of it back and it's mainly even overeating and binge eating. And there could be other causes to this. I think part of it might've been this cold Turkey. Yeah. Okay. So I'll, I'll tell you what, I mean, um, yeah, we've worked with clients like you, you, who I think have some really good things going on the behavioral part and then we can help them, you know, get deeper underneath the surface.
Um, I don't know if you have our book yet, The Last Relapse, uh, the one thing that we'll, we'll gift you with is, uh, we do have a masterclass that kind of explains [00:30:00] our three pillar methodology and goes into a little bit more depth. Pillar number two is going to be the big one for you, Joe. Um, that, that's, I think that's the part that's probably going to shift things more than anything else.
I'd be. to that. That'll get you on the right track. Um, a well trained therapist could definitely help you with this because I think we're talking more about needs and maybe some trauma history and that sort of thing. Um, so there's, I think you have a couple of different options, but we'll at least give you the master class.
I would start there and then obviously you can always check our stuff out too. But, um, you got some really good things in order here, man. I think what's gonna, what's gonna allow this to be sustainable because it sounds to me like you're feeling a little bit exhausted by all this. Um, and obviously like if you're gaining weight and you know, all that kind of stuff, like we don't want this trajectory to quite continue the way it's going.
Um, But yeah, I, I would, I would start digging in a little bit deeper. So we'll make sure Oscar sends that over to you, Sean. You want to add anything else here before we wrap it? Yeah, I think the last thing I'll say, Joe, is just to continue your maybe helping [00:31:00] you unpack and uncover some things when I work with guys that have had, um, seasons or years of being overweight and they're intimidated by women or they felt rejected, we just always want to have a posture of asking why is that?
So a lot of guys I work with might have self condemnation towards their weight and they think that's why they're watching porn and there's kind of this. misguided understanding. But we always want to ask, like, what would cause someone to be 60 pounds overweight from their childhood? Was it a lack of affirmation from parents?
Was it being bullied? What could it have been an unemotional father? Was it a divorce where you were split between two parents and never really felt loved, or maybe you blamed yourself for a divorce. We want to really explore those things. Cause that's at the heartbeat of why we move away from abundance in crisis because of pain, trauma.
Moodiness. When people go through that stuff, they usually don't have a model of what safety looks like. So going to Jesus with that stuff doesn't even make sense to them. So it sounds like there's a lot of [00:32:00] opportunity here, not only to pinpoint maybe why you struggle with some of that stuff, but to bring it to the Lord.
And he, he wants to enter into those dark places, man, and, and heal you. It's, it's such a beautiful gift. It's just that we have to be able to pinpoint the deeper areas to invite them into. A lot of times we just say, You know, Lord, I'm, I've had sin and we make it very broad. So if you can pinpoint some more deeper realities of what's driven some of these pain points, the Lord is so gracious to enter into those places when we, when we invite them in.
Yeah. And what you shared with us earlier, like about, you know, body image and some of that stuff. Those are some great threads that I would definitely be pulling on and figuring out with some of the, uh, Underneath that, some of the beliefs, um, everything that comes with it. So we'll make sure Oscar sends you that masterclass.
Uh, it was great meeting you, man. We're cheering you on. Thanks for the call today. Good to hear. guys so much. Yeah. Bless you, bro. Bless man. Sure. Joe. Thank you, Joe. So the next guest we have is Christian. Welcome, [00:33:00] Christian. Hi there. Are you guys able to hear me now? Yeah, man. We can hear you. Okay. Good deal. Uh, thank you for having me on. Um, yeah, of course.
Fire away. I can help. Yeah. So my question, um, I am a 30 year old man. Obviously, I've found pornography for the first time when I was like 11 or 12. Um, and I've, I've been dealing with it ever since. Um, I am married. Uh, I have, I met my wife over 10 years ago. We got married a little over eight years ago. Um, but she has only known about my struggles with pornography for about five years.
Um, over the past five years, I've had a few relapses. Um, and I've recently, because of my last relapse, I've come to the realization that my, that everything I've been doing [00:34:00] until now has just been putting up roadblocks, whether it was, um, accountability partners or software or, or not having any devices or, or whatever it was, it was all just roadblocks.
And I had been doing very little mutual, um, uh, inner root trying to find the roots of what the issues were. Um, also, aside from the very first confession to my wife five years ago, I have never been honest with my wife about my relapses. She's always had to catch me. I've never been able to come to her and tell her that things were, were happening.
Um, In a, a recent counseling session, I realized with my counselor that one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time being honest with my wife is that I'm making my wife a, um, um, [00:35:00] idol in my life. I know that she doesn't want me to act out with pornography, so, um, as long as I'm able to hide it from her, my goddess, will be pleased with me and nothing else matters as much as that.
So my question is, what advice do you have about maintaining a healthy balance of valuing my wife and her opinions or feelings about me while at the same time not flipping into the codependency, um, um, habits that, that I have. I know in my head that my relationship with God needs to have the highest position in my life.
But I'm having trouble removing my wife from the most influential part, uh, position in my life. Um, because I know, I know that God doesn't want me to do any of this stuff either. I know that that's, that's, that's, [00:36:00] The driving force behind everything. But yeah, I also know God will forgive me immediately.
Yeah, I'm not as, and, and it's not. Well, let me, let me just pause you there for a sec, Christian. Cause this is, this is a lot here. So let's, let's, let's, let's at least get it going. Um, this is a great question. So I really appreciate you writing in. I know you told us before that, that you, you have a stutter.
So well done, man. Do you, you, that was perfect. Got a very clear picture of what's going on here. Um, So a couple of things. Number one is, um, the, the, it sounds like most of this is revolving around the marriage, the relationship, your wife, you don't want to let your wife down. Your wife is obviously getting really disappointed because she's catching you with this issue.
Um, yeah, so I want to actually before we start talking about, you know, your wife being an idol and all that kind of stuff. Um, the one thing I would actually like to suggest even before that is you guys need to have some system of how you communicate about [00:37:00] this issue that you both agree on. Because even if you did a lot of this work around like your wife being an idol and stuff like that.
I think it would help. Don't get me wrong, but, um, it's still possible that you could relapse after. And if she continues to catch you relapsing, that is going to be a really, really big problem in your marriage. It doesn't matter how much work you've done. So I do think you need a system where, um, you know, like a very common one is within 24 hours.
You're sitting here down and you're saying, Hey, I had a relapse and, um, that it doesn't have to be like that for some women. That's like, oh, I don't, I don't want to know that quickly or whatever, but you, you have to have some sort of system there because otherwise your, your wife is very, very vulnerable.
Um, because I think she's probably just caught you so many times now that it's devastating and it's probably creating a lot of anxiety or in her life. So I would actually [00:38:00] love to see you think a little bit more about that first, because I think that's a very, that's low hanging fruit. Um, that, that's just an easy thing that you can set up.
Yeah, so we We, we, we, we do have a system and I, I, that's exactly what it is. We have, I have, there's like a couple of tiers. If I, if I tell her within 24 hours, you know, then, then, then we're good. You know, as far as consequences, if I wait longer than that, there's, there's another, uh, tier where I have. Is a certain consequence if I wait over 24, but, but less than 48.
And if I wait longer than that, then there's another tier. And these consequences are, are, you know, it varies on what it is. Okay. I'm actually. What, why wouldn't you tell her within 24 hours?
Because if I don't tell her, then [00:39:00] she doesn't know. Yeah. Okay. I have to deal with it. I mean, yeah, so I'll be direct with you. You shouldn't need to have the consequence ladder to tell your wife within 24 hours because you're, it's very clear that you care about her and you don't want to let her down.
Right? But this is like, this is kind of how you would treat a child. Where it's like, yeah, the, if you want to be the man who's not watching pornography and you know, the husband that, you know, your wife deserves, I would not be setting up the consequence system. Um, I do think maybe, maybe there's one tier, one layer where it's like, if I don't tell what's in 24 hours, maybe.
Um, but, but I, I would say it's got to start there. And am I right? That the reason you're not telling her within 24 hours is, you know, Tied into some of these things you've recently discovered with your therapist, which is that you're afraid of disappointing her. And these are some of the things that are holding you back.
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, [00:40:00] what I've, what I've talked about with my, with my, with my counselor is, is basically what we've come to that I'm trying to work on in myself is that my recovery needs to take precedence outside of anything that my wife thinks about me because currently, The reason that I'm having a hard time is because her opinion of my, my recovery moving forward is, is everything to me.
I need her to think that I'm moving forward. And if I'm relapsing, that means she might not think I'm moving forward. But obviously that is a very, there's a lot of, um, Um, circumstantial things about that. And so if I, if that's what I'm basing my recovery on, if that's what my motivation for my recovery on, I might not ever recover because, because, you know, that's not a constant thing.
My wife is [00:41:00] human and she, she is. As much as she tries to, she's not perfect and will not love me unconditionally forever. Yeah. Um, I need to, I need to base my recovery on the standard that God has for me and his opinion of me, because that's constant. That's never going to change. And so I will never lose my motivation.
I will never lose it. But I'm, what I'm having trouble with is right off the bat, that sounds to me like I need to, I need to not care what my wife thinks. And that seems like an unhealthy way to have a marriage. Right. And so I'm, I don't know how to balance caring about what she thinks, caring about her feelings, caring about how I make, how my actions make her feel, but also that not being [00:42:00] what drives my desire to be clean, what drives my desire to heal, because if her feelings and her opinions of me is what's driving me.
What if that goes away? What if, or, or not even what if it goes away? What if I think it's going away? Yeah. What if, even if it's not actually going away, cause she, she's an amazing woman. I don't think that will happen, but what, but I know that I might think it, I, I often think it's happening. I often think that she doesn't love me anymore because Yeah, okay.
Sean's chomping at the bit over there, man. I can see the wheels are turning. Go for it, man. Yeah. Well, Christian, um, thanks for sharing all that, man. Sounds like you definitely have some clarity on a few things that some guys just don't have for a while. It's obviously been mulling this over. Um, I'll share a quick story of a client and I'm curious how this [00:43:00] resonates with you.
So, uh, working with a client, he did three years of therapy. Uh, he had a really like, hurtful ending of a relationship he thought was going to go into marriage. Um, and it was just devastating to him. I think, I think this happened five years ago. So therapy for three years. And the thing about the therapy that he went into is the therapist basically helped him change his way of relating to women that he's around.
And in theory, that sounds really good. Like you've been hurt by a woman. that you thought you'd be married to. Like, let's change the frame around how you respond to women and deal with women. What we've done in two months is trumping what he did in three years in counseling. Cause we're actually focusing on his mother wound and that's why it's been so painful for him is because he found safety in this woman that he's never found safety in a woman before.
And in two months, we've done more than what he did in three years. So I'm curious how this might tie into a mother wound more than focusing on your wife. I think you [00:44:00] need to focus on, did you ever feel safe in your childhood with your mom? Like, tell me more about that. We're getting into that in my counseling sessions too.
We can't, I definitely have some other one. That's going to give you the best bang for the buck. Sorry, Christian, to cut you off there. No, yeah. I mean, I won't, I won't get into it. There's not enough time on this podcast to really get into it. But my mom's initial reaction, the first time she caught me was.
Was, was less than ideal. And, and, and, uh, and I now frame every, every, the anticipation of what my, my, what my wife's reaction will be every time is, is framed around that now. Um, so yeah, we're definitely getting into that. That's definitely getting into it. Cause I think that is probably like, like Sean said, that's where you're going to get the most bang for your buck as far as like recovery.
Energy input versus output. [00:45:00] Um, and what you said makes a lot of sense, but I'll tell you, you're probably just scratching the surface with that. I think there's probably a lot more to unpack. Um, because the one thing that is really screaming out from everything you've shared with me, and I'm looking at your written question again, is a really low sense of self esteem.
Like, you haven't really mentioned yourself at all. Um, other than you know, you know what you want to get rid of and you know, you, you want to have God in the right place and not have your wife be there and all that kind of stuff. But, um, but I, I would guess that if you and your therapist are able to really keep, keep digging on that mother wound, um, you're going to find yourself again and that is probably going to be more effective for some of these, you know, surface level thinking patterns that you're trying to shift and all that.
That's probably gonna be more powerful than anything else. So we will still send you, I know you're working with the therapist, so we'll still send you our masterclass. That'll give you some of these concepts a little bit more. Again, Pillar 2 will be very helpful for you and Pillar 3 as well. And then, I mean, again, if your therapist is helping you with this stuff, [00:46:00] that's awesome, man.
I would say keep on the path and keep going. We're cheering you on. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. Thank you for what you guys do. It's a real blessing. Aw, thanks, man. God bless you. Great to meet you today. Nice to meet you guys. Look, well if you like the show, if you enjoyed what you heard today, you can get those resources as well.
The last Relapse is available at the last relapse book.com. You can download it for free or gift to you. Make sure you're subscribed to the show. And if you do have a question that you want to get answered like the guys today, you can submit that through the form in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.
God bless you. We'll see you soon. [00:47:00]