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[00:00:00] Hey, hey, what's up my man? It's Athea Sam. Welcome to this incredibly special [00:00:05] episode of Unleash the Man Within. Now, there's a couple of reasons. This is so special. Number one, this interview is [00:00:10] in person. And for those of you watching in line, you'll see we captured the video, which we've never done [00:00:15] before for an in person interview on this show.
[00:00:17] Number two, I'm sitting down with a [00:00:20] new friend of mine. Naftali Moses. And I don't normally travel to [00:00:25] interview people. That's just not part of our ritual right now, but I happen to be in California. I [00:00:30] was interviewing on a fitness podcast called Mind Pump. Naftali and I connected at just the right time and he's [00:00:35] also in California.
[00:00:36] And so I swung over to his place. Uh, we recorded, we actually rented a studio for [00:00:40] this one. We did it right. And honestly, it turned out absolutely incredible. I know you're going to love it. [00:00:45] Um, and so it was really special for me and I'll just say this, this Interview is amazing. [00:00:50] You know, it's just different when we're in person, it's very candid, naturally shares about a bunch of stuff that [00:00:55] he's never shared online before.
[00:00:56] It was really special and we really got to some cool places. Now, if [00:01:00] you don't know who naturally Moses is. This is a young up and comer in the men's [00:01:05] transformational space. He has blown up online in the last year or so. And, uh, probably about six [00:01:10] months ago, a bunch of people were sending me his videos.
[00:01:11] Like, have you checked this guy out? He's amazing. He talks about pornography. And, you [00:01:15] know, uh, we had so much that we connected over. And you're going to find that in this interview today. We talk about [00:01:20] pornography addiction. We talk about masculinity and sort of the male crisis that's going on. [00:01:25] We talked about paradigm shifts and what it means to actually transform.
[00:01:28] And we talked about faith and [00:01:30] religion and a whole bunch of different things. It's really broad spanning, very robust. And to be [00:01:35] honest, these are the kinds of conversations I dreamt of having years ago, when I started the podcast, you [00:01:40] will notice that Nathalie and I are not fully aligned on everything that we, that we think or believe.[00:01:45]
[00:01:45] And that's sort of the fun of it. You know, it's fun to challenge each other. It's fun to come at things from different angles, and [00:01:50] I challenged him at certain parts of the interview. He challenged me a little bit more towards the end. It was really, really [00:01:55] neat for us to go back and forth and to support each other.
[00:01:57] And in the end, I think it was just a phenomenal [00:02:00] conversation. So I'm not going to waste any more time here. Let's jump in. Here's my live, in person [00:02:05] interview with Naftali Moses. [00:02:10] [00:02:15] [00:02:20] [00:02:25] [00:02:30] [00:02:35] And we were talking about the American Pie films, Yeah. You [00:02:40] know, as a young kid, you're probably not aware of what you're watching. It's a lot of fun. You're enjoying it. Yeah. But, like, ultimately, [00:02:45] you end up, you know, And I think it's kind of like realizing as you get older, like, Oh my God, this is straight porn.
[00:02:48] It's actually a porn parody [00:02:50] that was expanded into something. And then you're probably like, Oh, it's harmless. And that's, that [00:02:55] belief right there is exactly the problem. Yeah. Well, and think about those movies. Do you ever watch them [00:03:00] alone? No, you watch them with someone else. Right? Usually it's buddies getting together.
[00:03:04] So it gets [00:03:05] socialized. So if it's socialized, it's normalized. And it becomes, [00:03:10] it's like revving your engine. That's really wise. Yeah. If it's socialized, it's normalized. 100%. Which is very [00:03:15] interesting. Like, I've even had girlfriends tell me, It's okay to watch porn, you're a guy. [00:03:20] Right. The worst thing you could tell any man are those words.
[00:03:23] Terrible. Yeah, terrible. You're [00:03:25] reinforcing the worst part of him, and you're also telling him that it's okay. Right. [00:03:30] harmlessness has now become socialized, which I thought was just beautifully [00:03:35] insightful. Yes. And normalized. Right, so that's exactly how you can get [00:03:40] anything and why do you accept it? Why do you think a woman would say that why would she yeah, well [00:03:45] harshly.
[00:03:46] I'm actually I don't know I mean, I like this. I don't know So tell me what I [00:03:50] have I have assumptions, but I feel like you you're on to something here because it's normalized Cuz it's normalized [00:03:55] because it's normalized the woman risks violating the social agreements So yeah, [00:04:00] which is typical against all women's natures, right?
[00:04:01] I'm not going to violate the social agreement, right? You don't want to be you don't be the woman [00:04:05] who's trying to force a man to do something. That's not normal So porn is normalized Of course a [00:04:10] woman's going to say, yeah, I don't care if you watch porn, because she doesn't want to be the person who says, no, you can't watch porn with me.
[00:04:14] She draws a [00:04:15] hard line, and all of a sudden, she basically puts at risk 90 percent of the men that she would probably [00:04:20] try to attract in the first place. Because the majority of men are watching porn anyway. Yeah, and that's the whole thing. They're [00:04:25] accepting the societal condition by which men are going to be hooked up to these [00:04:30] IV bags.
[00:04:31] And unfortunately, it disconnects the women from the men and the men from the women, because [00:04:35] ultimately, They're not aware of what it's done to their wiring and how we connect with [00:04:40] each other. Yeah It's not a thing but if it was it would be a fast food ivy bag [00:04:45] It would be a fast food ivy bag. So I mean honestly you you have a lot more This is your profession.
[00:04:49] You know, I talk [00:04:50] about porn on the side helping people quit as my profession just to clarify Helping people you're [00:04:55] not born. I'm not an actor. Yeah That wouldn't be too good [00:05:00] So Yeah, that I mean, that's something you've done. I was just asking you about your journey. I was actually very curious about [00:05:05] it Yeah, you were raised in what kind of household christian home Pastor's home that was a [00:05:10] pastor.
[00:05:10] Oh, that'll do it. You'll be the number one porn runner dude and and wherever you're legit [00:05:15] Yeah porn, so sorry my dad my grandpa my great grandpa were all pastors. So [00:05:20] strong lineage of faith Um, I got exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my christian school [00:05:25] I was 11 years old. Probably guilt and shame off the charts, dude.
[00:05:28] Like you wouldn't believe it's like, it's like jerking off the [00:05:30] porn at the temple or something. Well, yeah, it's honestly no better. And it was where it's best. It was by [00:05:35] accident. So I wasn't actually trying to find it. Like, I didn't even really know that was a thing, to be honest. Um, but [00:05:40] yeah, the guilt and shame is like, I mean, I remember trying to, you're putting your hands on the screen, you're trying to, like, turn the [00:05:45] monitor off.
[00:05:45] Like, interesting. Yeah. But there's also so much pleasure in that, of [00:05:50] course. And that that's exactly really the understanding of it, which is If this is the worst thing for you [00:05:55] possible, why does it feel so good? Because it's the weaponization of the one thing about us that is true, which is [00:06:00] sexual desire.
[00:06:00] It's the purest thing we have. Yeah. And I've noticed how that's created a [00:06:05] society by which we think sex isn't pure. It is the most pure intention you have. Yeah. [00:06:10] And we often associate it with dark. Yeah. Nothing about it is dark. Yeah. There's nothing more [00:06:15] pure than an instinct. It's nature by definition.
[00:06:17] Yes. How can it not be? It's, it's, it's. [00:06:20] Uns skewed. Yeah. And then that's exactly what creates a lot of the, the disorders that we're gonna talk about later today, because [00:06:25] I believe that that needs a light shined on it because people just don't think, oh, I need a little bit of porn. You know, shrug [00:06:30] it off.
[00:06:30] It's like you're not aware of the absolute , the cargo [00:06:35] storage bin that you are. Yeah. And the effect that it has on you by just even having [00:06:40] it in there at all. Yeah. And so I would just would love to hear a little bit about. You know, your first [00:06:45] relationships and how that, cause this is all probably what made you a professional in what you do.
[00:06:49] Oh [00:06:50] dude, 1000%. So I mean, the one thing I realized, this is after years of [00:06:55] therapy and introspection and recovery, you know, it's been eight years. So when did you start, when did you knew you were like, this is a big [00:07:00] deal. This isn't just porn. It's meeting and like, it's meeting a need in the worst way possible.
[00:07:04] In university. [00:07:05] University. So I'm studying in university. My goal is to become a psychiatrist. So I'm [00:07:10] working day and night. I have research grants. I'm doing research as an undergrad. I have a part time [00:07:15] job and I'm volunteering. I'm like trying to stack the profile. And my days are planned [00:07:20] around when I'm going to watch porn.
[00:07:22] Wonderful. Yeah. Oh, that's, that's actually [00:07:25] very common. I, I remember that myself. It was like, oh, you come home. That's Exactly. It's [00:07:30] always the reward at the end of the day. Like for high performers, that's, you always have a reward. There's nothing more [00:07:35] rewarding than pornography, more rewarding. So what was your relationship like with women?
[00:07:38] Were you a very [00:07:40] promiscuous person? Promiscuous, that's a harsh word. Were you very sexually active? No, I was the opposite. [00:07:45] So, I, I was actually afraid. I was like legitimately afraid of women. [00:07:50] And porn for me was the safest place I could go because I didn't have to risk rejection. That's, that's exactly [00:07:55] the safest bet, right?
[00:07:55] Yep. If I don't have to risk rejection with women, then I can go ahead and watch porn. [00:08:00] Yeah. And then, ultimately, won't have to confront the one thing that will challenge me, which is intimacy. [00:08:05] Exactly. And women mirror that. They mirror the deepest part of yourself, and you don't want to see it. Yeah, that's right.
[00:08:09] And [00:08:10] it, and it still satisfies the desires, temporarily, like the fast food IV bag, right? So you kind of live in this [00:08:15] illusion. You're like, yeah, I'm It's a serious state of unconsciousness, right? Because in hindsight, you're looking at this, you're like, this [00:08:20] is, this is The fact that this even happened because I often notice the way that I integrate it is exactly the other [00:08:25] way around as I Judge a guy's sexual activity based to his porn intake And then [00:08:30] you challenge them going whoa every night you're jerking off to these girls, right?
[00:08:34] Oh, well, [00:08:35] uh time to go out in the world and get rejected because you're going to interact with the real deal Exactly, and then let's [00:08:40] see how easy it is for you to access that part of it. Yeah, so It's actually [00:08:45] disconnected men from their basal instinct to go out and interact with women, which is a very healthy [00:08:50] thing.
[00:08:50] But also within the societal, or even a institutional, is a better way to [00:08:55] put it, confinements, people are left to think that, oh, I'm a good [00:09:00] Christian boy, or I'm Jew, I'm a this, I'm a that, you know? I can't do those things. I'm not [00:09:05] promiscuous. Yeah. And that right there is exactly what makes a porn addict.
[00:09:08] Is that they're not willing to face life. [00:09:10] They're not willing to face the rejection. They're living in a lack of connection and porn meets that [00:09:15] need, but yeah, at the cost of your humanity. Yeah. But promiscuity happens in two realms though, right? [00:09:20] So there's the external realm, which is where you are.
[00:09:22] You're hooking up with girls and it's all about the chase, [00:09:25] but the much more dangerous realm is the inner realm. And most men [00:09:30] by nature are promiscuous internally, but certainly if you watch porn, you're going [00:09:35] So interesting, it's the complete, that's the whole thing about like you're an imposter if you watch porn, because [00:09:40] you're actually internally bonding with what you've made them, [00:09:45] making it almost impossible for you to do that in the external world.
[00:09:49] Yeah. [00:09:50] So, it would be better if you were a world class pimp. And if you were to watch porn all day, [00:09:55] I would say that that's like, yeah, but one is in reality [00:10:00] and has its clear consequences, clear consequences, um, [00:10:05] STDs. Um, illegitimate children, um, intimacy disorders, right, but then if you notice the [00:10:10] same thing goes the other way, you still create the thing at the, at the core level, which is the intimacy disorder.
[00:10:14] [00:10:15] Yeah. But they think they're better. That's the whole problem. The guy that watches porn often separates himself from the pimp. One [00:10:20] hundred percent. But that's classic addict language, right? There's always some, we always try to [00:10:25] justify ourselves in some way. At least I'm not as bad as so and so. At least I'm not doing X, Y, Z.[00:10:30]
[00:10:30] So it's not just, it's not just to, you know, somehow create this dissonance [00:10:35] between what's real and our life. But it's actually to insulate, it insulates the addiction. [00:10:40] Cause as long as you can justify your toxic behavior, you'll never leave it. That's [00:10:45] interesting, right? Cause it's, it's, it's within the, I love that.
[00:10:47] That's the classic addict right there. Is that it's [00:10:50] constantly justified with a perfect picture bubble by which you do [00:10:55] those things. That allow you to maintain your stature. And suffer simultaneously. [00:11:00] So it's the perfect, um, the, the, the somehow the victim, [00:11:05] right. But also the Victor and you're like, well, what's going on here?
[00:11:09] Yeah. This is [00:11:10] protected by your ego and you're pretty much never going to be able to break any addiction past that point. No, [00:11:15] exactly. But you, you hit the nail on the head. It's interesting. I don't think a lot of people are aware. The main [00:11:20] reason people watch porn is intimacy. Like porn addiction ultimately is an intimacy disorder.[00:11:25]
[00:11:25] And it's only when men can repair their ability to experience intimacy. That porn no [00:11:30] longer has the same kind of pull. So, I mean, I'd love to hear how you realize that. So going back to you, you [00:11:35] were, you, you had your reward at the end of the day, you know, by the way, which is for everyone in fucking school.
[00:11:39] Think [00:11:40] about how exhausting that is, as a young boy, you're put through councils of hours of things that don't even allow you [00:11:45] to express this aggression. And then you have the one thing to allow you to feel good [00:11:50] because like you need to feel good. Like that's a crazy thing. You need to feel good. And it's just by [00:11:55] the, by whatever means you're going to get it.
[00:11:57] Yeah, you either feel good with responsibility or you feel [00:12:00] good with irresponsibility and realize the responsibility of the mess. Yeah, right [00:12:05] Yeah, so I mentioned I'm in university. I'm planning my days around it. [00:12:10] So I'm what were you studying at the time biological sciences? So I'm working in a research lab [00:12:15] biological.
[00:12:15] Oh, yeah, very But this is the interesting thing, right? Is I'm in an atheistic [00:12:20] environment. So everyone's anti God. Whoa. Okay. We're going to be here for longer than two hours. [00:12:25] Yeah. Because, because that's the nature of science these days, right? Like science is very much, uh, [00:12:30] we don't need God anymore. Cause we have, we have research, we have science, we have data.
[00:12:33] It is an atheistic [00:12:35] environment by, by default. It's going to be everything within a control group, which is not how life works [00:12:40] outside of the vacuum. Yeah, that's right. So in this atheistic environment. And all of a sudden [00:12:45] I realized, you know, I've been growing up a certain way, I was raised Christian, went to Christian school, like I mentioned, [00:12:50] and now I don't know how to defend those beliefs, or these are smart people who are [00:12:55] saying, God's not real, you don't need God, and I'm starting to think, well, maybe they're onto something.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] So I'm soul searching, we can get into it if you want, but ultimately No, I think that that's [00:13:05] exactly It's the whole thing about the 12 step program. It's like the rule. Number one is like, I accept myself as I am. And then [00:13:10] rule number two is an acceptance of a higher power. Yeah. And if you can't get past it, well, then you're going to realize that every single rule that [00:13:15] comes after it is in relationship to a higher power.
[00:13:16] Yes. Because it's all in association to the strongest [00:13:20] belief possible, which is there something more I can be more. Yes. And everything is out [00:13:25] of order without that tenant. It has to be that there's divine order. So [00:13:30] I end up finding that, that, that was my conclusion. So you, you were in an atheistic [00:13:35] environment, which I find is very interesting.
[00:13:36] It's a whole different conversation for another time because it's an absolutely, it's a whole thing [00:13:40] about the world as a whole. Yeah. But I do find it interesting that you didn't have the tools necessary to [00:13:45] defend your beliefs in an atheistic environment. No. Because 99 percent of religious [00:13:50] institutions protect people from the opposite environment that they hold.
[00:13:53] Yeah. Making it a high wall [00:13:55] that makes the people inside of it weak. Yes. When having to fight against falsehood. That's literally exactly [00:14:00] what it was. It was textbook. Wow. Yeah, like I, I even remember my first day of university just being like, I'm [00:14:05] on a campus with tens of thousands of people and most of them don't believe what I believe.
[00:14:09] That was like, that was [00:14:10] new to me. Wow. You know, and like, I mean, granted, it's not like I'd never been in public before, but in an [00:14:15] educational environment. Yeah, you're going to be challenged in an educational environment. Yeah, exactly. to present your ideas and thoughts. [00:14:20] Yeah, exactly. So you were pretty much alone, which is.
[00:14:22] Yeah. Exactly how porn works. It's, it's an [00:14:25] association to loneliness. Uh huh, it's an isolator. Yeah. So. Out of this whole soul [00:14:30] searching I commit my life. I'm like, you know what I've decided Jesus is [00:14:35] is it? I want to be a christian and I know that with that decision comes lifestyle [00:14:40] changes So there's a couple things but I mean you made a full commitment to who you are which is in relationship [00:14:45] to faith Yeah.
[00:14:46] Yeah, so this is no longer like i'm doing this because we go to church as a family [00:14:50] on sundays Or I go to a christian school. This is like i'm owning this i've been I've [00:14:55] been kind of like looking around I want this for myself and I know that I have to change some [00:15:00] lifestyle things top of that list I know it in my heart of hearts.
[00:15:02] I have to quit watching porn and I [00:15:05] go three days And that's when it hits me like this is not [00:15:10] this is not just a little thing. Oh, this isn't just yeah Putting down the cigarettes. No No [00:15:15] This is about who you are and what you are worth in front of the face of the [00:15:20] things that you desire Yeah, and you will be so challenged That it will make you whether or not [00:15:25] question your life as a whole.
[00:15:27] That the thing that you desire the most is the thing you can have the least. [00:15:30] Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing about the whole belief thing. Exactly. And when you do commit your [00:15:35] life to Jesus or another religion or doctrine, that, that identity shift has to [00:15:40] happen. But see, for me, I thought it'd be easy. Because I, I already knew the identity.
[00:15:43] Like, I grew up in it. [00:15:45] I just didn't realize how much my identity was wrapped in porn and the damaging beliefs [00:15:50] that are reinforced every time I was watching it. So dude, it took me another, it was another five [00:15:55] years before I actually quit. That's how like confused I was coming in. So yeah, you probably had like [00:16:00] your one month clean.
[00:16:01] You counted your days. Oh, I did 50 days, no FAP. And then after that you lose [00:16:05] all of your esteem and power. And then you just go for another three rounds until you're like, wait, pick up the sticks. [00:16:10] I watched David Goggins earlier today. Right. And then you find yourself stuck in a cycle by which you are [00:16:15] doing the exact same thing.
[00:16:16] You are, associating your value to the non jerking off, so [00:16:20] you're actually creating more distance between that and stimuli. So you're isolating further, confirming the belief that [00:16:25] you're still not enough to have the love that you want. That's it. And that's the thing about bubbles, brother. You make them [00:16:30] bigger, you're still arriving to the same conclusions.
[00:16:31] Yeah. And, and it's dangerous to say the least, but people really need to [00:16:35] be willing to venture outside of what they know. Yeah. Completely. And that's the whole thing about faith, which [00:16:40] is, are you willing to understand that there's something larger here? That whatever it is, is for the best. Yeah, exactly.
[00:16:44] [00:16:45] See, and men do this a lot. Men say, Oh, I used to think this way. Now I think [00:16:50] that way. And what they don't realize is the opposite of the thing they used to think is still in the [00:16:55] same continuum. If you really want to swing from one end to the other, it's still the exact [00:17:00] same thing. It's exactly what you said, right?
[00:17:01] It's like my identity is formed around watching porn and now my identity is [00:17:05] formed around avoiding porn. But it's still in the same continuum. Mm-Hmm. , you have to, you actually have to switch the [00:17:10] continuum for your identity shift. Yes. The whole belief system needs to shift. It's a paradigm shift. Yeah.
[00:17:14] [00:17:15] It's a whole paradigm shift. It's not just to switch from one extreme to the next. 'cause those are the exact same people. Yeah. Both ultimately [00:17:20] running away from an aspect of themselves. They haven't confronted, uh, right. Uhhuh. Exactly. And so, I mean, the, the way I [00:17:25] go through, it's probably very similar to the way that you do it, but you're, you, you're good with the terminologies [00:17:30] and getting people to understand what these things are and how they could see themselves and, and et cetera.
[00:17:34] So five [00:17:35] years later. What was it like? What was your, like, uh, hooking up patterns like? What was [00:17:40] your, like, dating life like? Your sex life? So, still, still basically nothing. So, that's insane. [00:17:45] So, you were a good Christian boy. By, with quotes. Yeah, more or less. With the [00:17:50] mind of a porn star and a porny, right?
[00:17:54] Which is a better [00:17:55] word. Existing in a world where his beliefs are in complete [00:18:00] opposition of his desires. Yeah. So, you lived in hell. Yeah, that is hell. [00:18:05] Yeah When you know that you can't be the thing that you feel like you should be that's hell. Oh, that's [00:18:10] really rich Yeah, when you say say that again When you know, you can't be the thing that you should be [00:18:15] when you know You can't be the thing that you should be that's living hell.
[00:18:17] Yeah, so that was it [00:18:20] But I will say and I would actually like to hear your thoughts on this for me [00:18:25] It was it was the continuum jump what we were just talking about. That's when [00:18:30] everything changed for me So when it was no longer like i'm not in this I'm [00:18:35] not going to try to battle, I don't have to prove myself.
[00:18:39] This is just about [00:18:40] me becoming someone different. And for me, it was becoming more like Christ. It's [00:18:45] like I'm going to embrace that nature, keeping porn out of the conversation. [00:18:50] That's, that's legitimately when I start to find what I would call freedom. Oh, you're going to hate [00:18:55] me. Go for it. Yeah. Cause it's all about triggering.
[00:18:58] Actually, in fact, it's about keeping it as [00:19:00] close as you can to yourself until it gets on a leash, because it is a part of you, right? [00:19:05] So there, there is something very, well, I, one of my best friends is a [00:19:10] Christian and every other word that comes out of his mouth is Jesus, but that's a whole different conversation.
[00:19:14] Really what [00:19:15] I'm understanding it as is just clear and total devotion to an ideal and a representation of [00:19:20] somebody who's willing to sacrifice all of what he is for that. And that is the way by which you [00:19:25] find God, by which you find the light, by which you find the way, right? So. But there is a certain [00:19:30] point where it eventually becomes the repression of a nature that is the most beautiful thing that you have.[00:19:35]
[00:19:35] And that you still have to work through those things in the context of an intimate relationship. Yeah. Because there's so [00:19:40] much, whether you like it or not, your pull towards those things, whether freaky or fetishes, [00:19:45] are actually the love languages that you have adopted. And you have to develop the ability to [00:19:50] communicate them to the people that you want to connect with.
[00:19:52] So, not only do you need to be the weirdest you're [00:19:55] bordering, I'm a porn star and a rabbi. And that's gonna be the only way by which I get over [00:20:00] this association of me being that. And actually, The incorporation of the darkness and [00:20:05] the information is what's going to make me a real person. So, there's almost [00:20:10] an understanding that it's giving you something.
[00:20:11] Yeah. Which is a really hard thing to look at, especially in a religious [00:20:15] environment. Or even, you know, the traditional Christian framework, which is void of sin, but [00:20:20] also void of goodness. Versus what I believe is to live a life full of goodness, not in avoidance of [00:20:25] sin. No. It's just going to happen. It's going to be inevitable.
[00:20:28] Well, you will naturally gravitate towards [00:20:30] whatever you try to avoid. Mm hmm. So there's no point. There's no point living in the avoidance. [00:20:35] So then how did so you you didn't go full cold turkey? No, and but in your [00:20:40] relationship to women, I understand you're married now. Yeah, I mean, this is a very vulnerable conversation Um, you [00:20:45] feel free if you feel comfortable with these things, um, because I believe that these things are all you got married How long [00:20:50] ago four and a half years ago four and a half years ago.
[00:20:52] I mean my specialty is relationships and [00:20:55] confidence Yeah, and integration, right? So it's it's about understanding the dark parts of [00:21:00] yourself. Uh huh You and mending it together, and perhaps even your relationship is a mere reflection of that, [00:21:05] right? So, did you have something in a sexual space? [00:21:10] Of course, it's probably going to be a little more.
[00:21:12] Just, yeah, did it, when did you [00:21:15] heal those, when did you heal that belief about yourself that you weren't enough of the things that you desire due to porn? [00:21:20] Probably about a year before I quit watching. A year [00:21:25] before you quit watching? Yeah. So, a year before [00:21:30] you quit watching. And did that, did that manifest into a relationship?
[00:21:33] Yeah. [00:21:35] It manifested into the confidence to pursue a relationship. Wild. So [00:21:40] it, it handicapped you from even willing to put yourself out there. And most people aren't aware of that [00:21:45] about porn is that it takes away your ability to go out there. It's an isolator. [00:21:50] It keeps you insular, stopping you from love, the one thing you want.
[00:21:53] And it also [00:21:55] reinforces the belief that you're not enough. Right. And if you believe you're not enough, the only thing that you [00:22:00] actually want in life is social acceptance. Because that's the only thing [00:22:05] that can give you that semblance rough. That's the only thing that can give you a semblance of maybe I am good [00:22:10] enough.
[00:22:10] Wow. So why would you go and ask a girl out and risk the [00:22:15] rejection when you can go watch porn and feel accepted for 11 and a half [00:22:20] minutes or, you know, yeah. So there's something fascinating [00:22:25] about that, right? It's, I mean, my, everything that I teach people to do is get rejected. The whole reason why I [00:22:30] actually help them integrate the way that I help people integrate their porn addictions.
[00:22:33] Is by getting them to speak about [00:22:35] the things that they like to women that they desire. Man, that's hard. So what you're [00:22:40] doing is you're showing them first, they need a level of personal integration. It's the hero's journey, right? So every single [00:22:45] integration is the hero's journey, right? So your mom is this, your dad is that your balance.
[00:22:49] That's where you should, we got to [00:22:50] see yourself, right? Yeah. This is too much. This is too much. Well, then you're going to be the one that brings balance to the force, right? [00:22:55] Luke Skywalker. And well, you create a lot of that chaos, [00:23:00] right? There may be years of porn watching. And then what ends up happening is now you're confronted with the ability [00:23:05] to integrate that and perhaps maybe like slay the dragon.
[00:23:07] I've been reading way too much Dora Peterson, just [00:23:10] forgive me. Um, it makes you unable to communicate simple ideas because it [00:23:15] doesn't do it justice because of how beautiful it is. Yeah, I know. And so I realized that there's a certain [00:23:20] point where people have to take the thing that has hurt them and wear it on them [00:23:25] voluntarily, waiting for others to reject them to create an association to what they have [00:23:30] discovered to be beautiful, to then present it to somebody else who sees it as beautiful.
[00:23:33] But it's done [00:23:35] inside and then taken outside and then mirrored outside inside. Yes. And [00:23:40] it's really beautiful at that point because now you're no longer running away from you. Yeah, we've actually [00:23:45] conquered you Yes, we need to know that. Yeah in order to feel strong as men and that's an [00:23:50] association of confidence and all the other things Yeah, so this will tie some of these pieces together [00:23:55] I Grew up.
[00:23:56] So i'm I was grew up high achieving so I skipped grade two Indian [00:24:00] household brother third world indian household. You didn't know what a c looked like. Yeah [00:24:05] or a b Or b I came home literally like [00:24:10] I mean, I was a straight A student, but like, at the end of my life or near the end of college, I [00:24:15] was like, I was a C student.
[00:24:16] Dang. Yeah. Like world class C student, but I was participating. [00:24:20] That made me realize school's full of shit. Cause when I was actually learning things, I was getting bad grades. Yeah. And I was [00:24:25] like, Oh, these things don't associate to each other. I want to learn things. Yeah. Not pass tests. That's right. So [00:24:30] between look between being a pastor's kid.
[00:24:32] I don't know if you are familiar with some of the syndromes that [00:24:35] come with I'm sure you've oh, yeah No, I'm very familiar with the pastor's children rabbis children. Yeah people [00:24:40] from our ultra religious households Yes, they pretty much create the one thing that they've been running from which is a hyper [00:24:45] sexual rebel who challenges all beliefs and ideas Yeah, who is not an order?[00:24:50]
[00:24:50] And any of the ways that they have, it is a manifestation of all of the disorder they have [00:24:55] confronted. That's right. And again, they're either rebellious on the inside or outside. It's one or the other, sometimes it's both. [00:25:00] There's so much shame though. Because the confinements are so strong. So what you are is [00:25:05] such a problem.
[00:25:06] So the kind of courage you're going to have to create is disproportionate, which is why I think often the people [00:25:10] that come from those households are heroes. 100 percent they have a journey and it's going [00:25:15] to, yeah, you're gonna get burned up a lot, but you're going to be just know that that's who you are and you should do a pretty good job.
[00:25:19] [00:25:20] Yeah, exactly. So, so for me, my, my whole image, my sense of self was [00:25:25] all about, it was like on the outside, everything has to be put together. I could not show weakness. I [00:25:30] could not show vulnerability like you're talking about. Just, I was talking about before we turned the camera on. Yeah, I know. [00:25:35] Exactly.
[00:25:35] Exact same thing. And ironically for me, the two, I still remember this cause I talked about that [00:25:40] last year before I stopped watching porn. Two things happened. Number one is I got in touch with [00:25:45] my weaknesses and number two is I got comfortable enough displaying them to peers [00:25:50] So what would that look like?
[00:25:51] So it would look like you know what today? [00:25:55] I tried to do this thing and I totally failed at it I would never been able to talk [00:26:00] to other people about that before Wow Yeah, and it's that simple. It's about a representation of your struggles. Do you know [00:26:05] it's funny though If you have still the same continuum, which what we're talking about.
[00:26:08] Uh huh You will take that to get [00:26:10] a reaction from others. Yes. And that you have to shatter that too. It's like a constant, you have to [00:26:15] grow past your own bubbles that you create. That's why, okay. That's why we need to stop using the word vulnerability, [00:26:20] even though we've already, yes, it is because now, now it's become a tactical weapon.
[00:26:22] Exactly. Literally. I was at, I was at a [00:26:25] business event one time. And there's these marketers sitting at a table and I hear one of the guys say, [00:26:30] vulnerability is killing it right now. Vulnerability, like, like it's the strategy. Yeah. Authenticity is [00:26:35] the new, the new, uh, yeah, the new whatever it is. Yeah. It's, it's the weaponization of what we [00:26:40] are, which is what keeps us further and further from what we are.
[00:26:42] It's keeps us robots so sad because vulnerability was a beautiful thing, [00:26:45] but now it's, it's become distorted. So we use the word transparency, whatever. It's all semantics. Yeah. Constantly [00:26:50] evolve the same thing. Yeah. Based off of intentions and motives. Yeah, exactly. But the point, the point I wanted to make [00:26:55] is, it is.
[00:26:56] It was in the representation, or the displaying rather, of my weaknesses [00:27:00] and getting social acceptance with my weaknesses. That's where I found true [00:27:05] healing. And this integration concept that you're talking about, this is a big deal. [00:27:10] Especially for men in our society today. Because when men don't integrate, they either end up weak, [00:27:15] living in their mom's basement, playing video games.
[00:27:17] You know, the trajectory that I was on. [00:27:20] Or they end up promiscuous, ravenous. Domineering and no sense of how to relate or connect. That's [00:27:25] interesting, yeah, right, and they're both the exact same thing. Exactly. People that can't confront their [00:27:30] emotions. Yeah. And they've associated them to weakness. It's the same continuum, yeah.
[00:27:33] It's the same continuum. The guy that wears it [00:27:35] on himself or the guy that hides it inside is the same person. Both of those [00:27:40] people reject their humanity and the aspects of male aggression that needs to be integrated. Yeah. So that's really, I mean, I [00:27:45] realize that myself. What I do notice is, is that. You have to have people [00:27:50] experience the truth.
[00:27:50] Right. You have to get them to experience the truth. So how did you realize it? It was something very [00:27:55] interesting for me because, you know, I have a twin brother who has struggled with porn up until, literally, he [00:28:00] probably has a Tallymore board on it, you know? But for three years is when I stopped.
[00:28:04] Okay. [00:28:05] I stopped completely. And the thing is, it's always, the time by which you stop porn, Um, and [00:28:10] I think that's the learned is that the best video is when you're looking at the best video. So I [00:28:15] was this is I came out of a serious relationship and I realized I repressed a lot of my sexual nature [00:28:20] and in the relationship near the end of it by not getting my needs met because, of course, I was resentful [00:28:25] little brat who wouldn't just go.
[00:28:26] Hey, what the fuck's going on? There's a problem in the relationship. Yeah, that's what most [00:28:30] people should understand about sex, too, is that they're the natural state of men and women [00:28:35] is to be having sex with each other all the time. It's a constant state of harmony, [00:28:40] right? That's manifested in sex conversation.
[00:28:42] And Discovery intimacy. [00:28:45] Yes. And opposed to me confronting it, I'd swallow a lot of those feelings. And of course, you know, years of [00:28:50] my life, pretty much from ages 13 to 18 before I got my first [00:28:55] serious girlfriend, which meant consistent sex, which manifested in a girl who was an info, by the way. [00:29:00] So there's a lot of interesting things in relationship to that.
[00:29:02] I probably wasn't as good a Christian as you. I was a little more [00:29:05] old testament. And I found myself having to just really go about this journey [00:29:10] in relationship to women. You know what exactly allows me to bond with them. So At first, it started, you know, [00:29:15] in a relationship where, you know, you have your sex, but when your girlfriend's not there, you got your porn.
[00:29:18] Yeah. Right? So there was this, [00:29:20] I bond with you emotionally, but I get excited through this. Yeah. And so I would get less and less [00:29:25] excited for sex. And we would bond through ripping each other apart as you would [00:29:30] bond more and more with your laptop, right? Ultimately, you're reinforcing these things that who you are [00:29:35] can't show up at once But eventually the emotional connection deteriorates and eventually the emotional connection deteriorates and then [00:29:40] you're tripling down on pornography And you're reinforcing the belief that i'm not enough for the things that I desire and who I am [00:29:45] cannot exist Because we're not equipped for the tools that you need in life, but that's a whole different question So when [00:29:50] I was 21 I came out of this relationship and I remember it was like, I did three [00:29:55] times in one hour and that's usually the kind of rounds I'd run with her.
[00:29:58] Okay. She comes back from [00:30:00] work, by the way, the job that I employed her for, and that just goes to show you how twisted our society is. But when he was, we'll, [00:30:05] we'll take care of that another time. We're we're dealing with this in a vacuum. I have to start working on that myself. [00:30:10] Um, and I'm speaking to her and I'm like, look, we have a serious problem with the relationship [00:30:15] and I remember I was like, I'm not getting any of my needs met.
[00:30:18] Like, I just jerked off three times [00:30:20] before in the bathroom. And she was like, what, babe, there's no problem with that. You're not a watch porn. [00:30:25] And I literally was like, there was not a, there was the most lonely [00:30:30] things I ever heard in my life was that somebody wouldn't look out for you when you do things like that.[00:30:35]
[00:30:36] And so that's what made me realize, okay, I gotta get out of the relationship. So after that, I turned into [00:30:40] Matthew McConaughey. I speak about this a lot, but so I want to pause for a second. So you were expecting her to say [00:30:45] what the hell is wrong with you? Oh, I would have loved that. Okay. Um, partially because it would have been [00:30:50] constructive, but at the time I wasn't ready for it internally.
[00:30:52] I didn't believe that I didn't allow myself to feel and experience those things. So why would [00:30:55] I manifest a partner that would go, what the fuck are you doing? Right. So all of those things are in relationship to what you're [00:31:00] experiencing internally. But what was really interesting after the relationship before this relationship, I was an absolute tiger.[00:31:05]
[00:31:05] I was completely and totally like, I like this girl, I see her naked, I got my business, I do [00:31:10] this. I had a really, really developed sexual nature, but I would always feel shame for it, because I would have my [00:31:15] friend group that I would go out and party with, and my friend group that I would just, you know, do the religious Jewish [00:31:20] stuff with.
[00:31:20] You know, play board games on Shabbat, talk about your wife, and, you know, really play this docile, [00:31:25] weak, by the way, closet psychopath. Because that's what every single one of them were, [00:31:30] was. And they're all susceptible to women's, uh, manipulation, like this, which is something I didn't want to be [00:31:35] susceptible to, which made me susceptible to it, which is on the opposite end.
[00:31:37] Right? So, that was what I was like [00:31:40] before the relationship, but after the relationship, I went, you know, in my own Jewish way, [00:31:45] and I took a vow of abstinence. How come? [00:31:50] Because I was, it was not, it was an avoidance, not in commitment, not in, not in [00:31:55] faith, it was a fear. I figure as much, but fear of what? Fear of hurting others.[00:32:00]
[00:32:01] Okay, I didn't want to and also fear of who I am [00:32:05] how dangerous I am This is the thing for a lot of men. You're going to realize this when you stop [00:32:10] watching porn You're going to realize how dangerous you are. Oh, geez. Yeah, you're going to see how dangerous you become a killer You [00:32:15] become a killer and you become a weapon of good And I think that's what men need to understand you're a weapon for good or weapon for [00:32:20] shit Whether on the back end or you own it.
[00:32:22] Yeah and people run but okay, so be it you're a warrior [00:32:25] Yeah, I remember this so vividly. There were very few moments in my life. Well, [00:32:30] honestly, progressively more and more like even the call I had with you, which was very interesting work. There were so much [00:32:35] association and presence. It was like something was with us.
[00:32:38] We were, we were on the path. [00:32:40] There's a still small voice. And I remember coming out of the relationship. I was [00:32:45] like, you know what? Next woman I kiss, It's gonna be my wife. Next woman I kiss and [00:32:50] have sex with will be my wife. Which is a ridiculous expectation on any woman you like. Because you're not forgetting the fact that you're [00:32:55] gonna put that on her.
[00:32:55] Yes. And so, I went about it one month, two months, totally cool. [00:33:00] Month three came around. I completely suppressed my sexual nature. I locked it away. I put [00:33:05] all of my animal instinct. I put it in a cage and I locked it. And I pushed it to the bottom of the marina trench. [00:33:10] But these things come back. And then they come back for blood.
[00:33:14] Because you betray [00:33:15] yourself. And you don't know that, they come back for you, they come to kill you. [00:33:20] And I remember I was smoking cigars, I was being Matthew McConaughey, I had my poncho on, my hat, [00:33:25] all the boys over, we're having a good time, and I heard this voice, it was like an unrelenting [00:33:30] desire, like, go check up on your girls, right?
[00:33:32] Your porn girls. And [00:33:35] so I go to the bathroom, I open up the laptop, it was, I even remember it to [00:33:40] this day, not in like the same kind of primal response, but it was the [00:33:45] video. And I'm pumping one up, and I hear this voice. Are you ready to go out there [00:33:50] and tell everybody you jerked off the porn?
[00:33:52] Is that who you are? [00:33:55] Wow. And, in the heat of it, I closed the tab, I put the computer [00:34:00] away, and I walked out. And it was like, who is the person you want to say you are [00:34:05] to yourself? Is this who you want to be? And I realized that these [00:34:10] decisions do define you. And it's about doing the exact thing which is to define yourself as somebody [00:34:15] else.
[00:34:15] It is a rebuilding of who you are, very similar to you, like a recommitment to Christ. [00:34:20] uh, I found myself watching porn again. It was a POV video and I was looking at the girl and I was like, oh, she's [00:34:25] beautiful.
[00:34:26] And then I was like, what am I looking at? And I realized for the first time in my life, I was looking at [00:34:30] two people do the thing that I wanted to do. And it hit me like I was [00:34:35] scared, like something like I saw a demon in the mirror reflection. And I go, what the I could be [00:34:40] doing this. I'm not a bad person.
[00:34:41] These things are beautiful. I could be sharing this with somebody because [00:34:45] that's how I was looking at it. And I was just like, I was just watching it for the first time, not as a stimulant, but as [00:34:50] a observer and then you're realizing you're an observer to the thing that you should never be an observer [00:34:55] to.
[00:34:55] Right. Yeah. And then I grabbed the computer. I throw it against the wall. I watch it smash [00:35:00] against it. And I, the next day I, [00:35:05] my brother's was getting married and I saw that He got married to a person that was a manifestation [00:35:10] of all of his repressed emotions, his repressed shadow. And then that night, at the [00:35:15] after party at the wedding, I had all my friends around me and I said, Guys, I made the vow with you, I need to annul the vow with you.[00:35:20]
[00:35:20] This was a first and active strength in understanding my sexual value. [00:35:25] Not only is it becoming easy for me, I'm running from parts of myself that I don't want to confront. I have to let [00:35:30] go, I have to unleash, I have to see what I can do. Wow. And then after that's when I started the integration [00:35:35] process by which porn wasn't even a thing on the back of my mind we have two choices in life to be destructive. [00:35:40] Yeah. And so, now I'm coming from that angle, realizing that I've healed the wound, I can make decisions, I [00:35:45] can make choices.
[00:35:45] Yeah. You can have love, porn isn't even something on your [00:35:50] mind. Yeah. So it was really actually through getting people into the world and being able to [00:35:55] present themselves, getting rejected with who they are. standing by themselves or [00:36:00] abandoning themselves, look at them, getting them to see what they are doing with themselves.
[00:36:03] Yeah. Because you know, the guy that goes, [00:36:05] Oh, I'm going to watch porn. Well, now you're going out every day. That's your homework. Yeah. Yeah. And you're going to have to [00:36:10] communicate the porn search to the women. You want play real life, Google and watch what happens. You're [00:36:15] going to get slaughtered by so many women that by the end of it, you might become a man who wants to protect women.
[00:36:19] Yeah. [00:36:20] It's really good, man. It's interesting. You know, when we work with a client, We have [00:36:25] basically three steps. We walked them through the second step is all about clues [00:36:30] from your triggers Because we all know that trauma plays [00:36:35] into Everything in our lives if you have trauma if you haven't addressed it you haven't faced [00:36:40] it or you repressed it It's gonna manifest right and it's interesting how much to actually manifest [00:36:45] in the porn people want So if you study like interesting so so there's a [00:36:50] certain kind of Trauma that manifests in the porn people watch, which is what actually Freud really tapped in [00:36:55] on, which is your fetishists say a lot about the things that you need bang on.
[00:36:59] [00:37:00] Yes, exactly. Which is why we don't wanna repress or suppress what [00:37:05] triggers us. That's beautiful. Yeah. No, no. Be into the kinky shit. Yeah. Love it. Connect to [00:37:10] it, contextualize it, and see what need you need to meet. Yeah, exactly. So that's, you can prepare a lot of the [00:37:15] trauma behind. 'cause it's not about getting rid of the fetishes.
[00:37:17] It's actually about embodying them. And actually it's a healing [00:37:20] space. Exactly. See. To do that, you first have to accept it. Like we're talking about, you have to acknowledge it. [00:37:25] And the beautiful thing is if this process has done well with a professional, you will actually start to [00:37:30] discover parts of yourself that have gone unmet that have been hollowed out, that [00:37:35] have been silenced for, you know, whatever, in the name of religion or something else.
[00:37:38] And so you discover, you [00:37:40] pretty much create a self actualization process through porn. Yeah, that's wonderful. [00:37:45] Specifically what you watch and why, and more importantly, why you're watching it. Right. And [00:37:50] that's the whole thing. It's very, I noticed that even in relation to a lot of men now are actually gravitating the most number one [00:37:55] searched the number one most searched on Pornhub is tranny porn. [00:38:00] Yes. And, and it's fascinating to me because I'm sure there's of course a whole list of [00:38:05] other aspects to it, but that's the number one most searched. Of course, clearly there's a curiosity aspect to it.
[00:38:09] Yeah. [00:38:10] But second, there's also another aspect of it, which is a serious imbalance in what men and women are. So they can kind of switch [00:38:15] around the rules. Yeah, but that already goes to show how much there needs to be healed like, you know A [00:38:20] lot of the time we reject often the desire but the desire just often manifests itself in something very [00:38:25] very very minimal Yeah, you like very intense Passionate porn.
[00:38:29] Yeah, it [00:38:30] probably means you just need a lot of attention Yeah, and I noticed that people exploit it to like no, it's just so hard [00:38:35] without this I can't and it's like those are all limitations. No through this you will and [00:38:40] and You know, I mean, there's so much more I want to talk about because we, I mean, we just kind of [00:38:45] just got into the surface of what it, what our journeys look like.
[00:38:48] Yeah, I want to comment on that. [00:38:50] The training point thing is interesting because that's a trend, right? So that's like something [00:38:55] that's maybe emerged the last couple of years. One of the interesting things is if you scour the data over the [00:39:00] last 10 years of what's like, what are terms that have been consistently common?
[00:39:04] Always [00:39:05] in the top five is milf porn. Yes milf porn. So why why do you think that is? Well, [00:39:10] let's think about what we just talked about that contextual triggers traumas So why would somebody why [00:39:15] would a grown man be so drawn to milf porn because he's got mommy issues [00:39:20] Absolutely, very simple because he's got mom wounding.
[00:39:21] He's got mom trauma and I was I mean i'm tech I was textbook that that was a [00:39:25] huge part of my process. I mean Generally addiction recovery is like [00:39:30] you you take one step at a time and you hope that in the grand scheme of a week a month [00:39:35] You took more steps forward than you took back. It's very rare that you have an addiction and all of a [00:39:40] sudden, bam, one day you wake up and you're clean.
[00:39:42] But if there was one day where it's like, I didn't just take one [00:39:45] step. I took 10 steps. It was the day I discovered my mother wounds were driving [00:39:50] my porn years. Oh, for real. I mean, every guy that thinks he's a womanizer, I'm sorry to break it to you. You have mommy issues [00:39:55] and you have a really hard time receiving intimacy from your mom.
[00:39:57] Yeah. So now you've contextualized it with many, [00:40:00] many women that you don't accept, that you know nothing about, which either manifests itself in porn or your quick. [00:40:05] Long, short term dating patterns. Yeah. By which you never discover anything about [00:40:10] yourself or discover anything about women. Which is the next thing I want to talk about.
[00:40:13] Which is the worst thing that porn does. Is that it [00:40:15] makes you think that you understand women in any way possible.
[00:40:17] So you pretty much create a world where you're [00:40:20] completely alone Yeah for you and nothing is there for you Actually it was all there just to show you that who [00:40:25] you are doesn't deserve a space to exist Yeah And um, it's it's the whole thing in relationship to acceptance because I [00:40:30] noticed how many men with mommy issues attract women with mommy issues But ultimately they reject the feminine both of them [00:40:35] One only wants to see the feminine as this picture perfect porn box Right?
[00:40:39] The thing [00:40:40] that can meet all of your needs, that can be there for you all the time, just a, a creature of [00:40:45] total and complete submission to your sexual fantasies. They're not aware of the amount of [00:40:50] responsibility that goes into that, and to how, the second they have their first kid, the sex diminishes [00:40:55] to literally zero.
[00:40:56] True. And they wonder, and they go, well, it's because her body changed. Is that [00:41:00] the best you got? Like, the truth is, actually, men actually bond with women more when they're pregnant. [00:41:05] Yeah. And actually, if they're healthy, even more after their first child. Yes. [00:41:10] So the relationship and the sexual tension actually increases after it.
[00:41:14] So there's something [00:41:15] very interesting about that. Yeah. But I think the porn world is a very low level of consciousness. Yeah. That has [00:41:20] unfortunately snatched so many good people. Yeah. Well, [00:41:25] yeah. It's a low level of consciousness. But what's actually more [00:41:30] powerful and what makes you, what keeps you coming back, It's not what you're conscious of, it's the things that [00:41:35] you're ignoring.
[00:41:36] So it's the things that you don't know you don't know. Yeah. It's outside of your [00:41:40] even own awareness of what you know you don't know. It's the needs, it's the beliefs. Yeah, it's the needs, it's the [00:41:45] beliefs, and it's the aspect of your need, of your human nature, and I believe manifested in the shadow that's not at all [00:41:50] integrated for any man or woman, you know, and it's funny, it's a, it's becoming more and more prominent, I'm sure you know about [00:41:55] this, but people are bringing porn into the bedroom.
[00:41:56] Yeah, and they're going it's fine. We're doing it together. Yeah, let me contextualize [00:42:00] it for you I like the way that I feel by looking at other people. Yeah, someone [00:42:05] who's not you. Yeah, somebody who's not you. Yeah, and And if, if women heard that out loud, they would never [00:42:10] accept it. But then I think there's an aspect of the feminine that's deeply struggling because it needs the guidance of the [00:42:15] masculine, especially if it's going to fully submit to you.
[00:42:17] And if, if a woman fully submits to a man that guides them off a [00:42:20] cliff, you're going off a cliff with him. So there's a certain aspect where you need to almost qualify the men that you're with [00:42:25] better. You should ask if they are porn addicts on a date and it's a big thing and you should see how he reacts to it.[00:42:30]
[00:42:30] There's a chance if he goes, yeah, I watch porn, I'm not happy about it. Yeah, there's no chance if he goes, [00:42:35] why the fuck are you asking me that? Yeah, exactly. And this is why people who watch porn are more likely to cheat, [00:42:40] more likely to get divorced. Uh, this is why sexual satisfaction plummets [00:42:45] when couples watch porn in a relationship.
[00:42:46] and then now you have people like they talk about the divorce rate, right? The [00:42:50] divorce rate is super high The the rate of first divorces is about 38 [00:42:55] But it's the second and the third divorces that jack up the rate now for 38 is still super high, [00:43:00] right? Interesting but When porn is in a relationship, there's a 56 percent [00:43:05] more likely chance that they'll divorce interesting And it's all because you are conditioning [00:43:10] yourself to experience arousal And all those things that you're meant to experience from your partner You Your [00:43:15] search through your screen.
[00:43:16] Yeah, you're falling in love with what's over a screen, not [00:43:20] what's in front of you. So you've become unaccustomed to human experience and intimacy [00:43:25] and you begin to bond with yourself with a [00:43:30] screen, because what you're seeing is a bunch of colors. If you actually pay attention to them, it's presents I think it's the primary colors that all [00:43:35] screens have that allow you to see it.
[00:43:36] Yeah, and you're not even bonding with the person you're bonding with what you made that person [00:43:40] Making even by the way, you're creating a world by which you are isolated within yourself Yeah Because every time that [00:43:45] you find yourself watching porn you're creating a world where your needs cannot be met And the dangerous part of that is and this is [00:43:50] something i've even experienced itself, which is you're further [00:43:55] pushing yourself Away from what you want.
[00:43:59] It's the [00:44:00] loneliest thing
[00:44:00] It's not just relative to others, I realize it's because you're [00:44:05] making out with a perfect picture of fantasy that's void of the one thing you are. [00:44:10] Humanity. Because think about the least human thing anybody [00:44:15] can do. Take a computer, watch [00:44:20] porn, jerk off, and continue your day to day. [00:44:25] Right. Look at the, look at the behavior.
[00:44:28] That's not [00:44:30] humanity there. There's an aspect of humanity that was repressed that created that. [00:44:35] And so, and it's interesting how you, you actually have such a wide framework for porn. It's like, I'm [00:44:40] talking to somebody with even more than I've actually experienced with. I mean, it's an honor to speak to you [00:44:45] about these things because it's, it's a big deal.
[00:44:47] It's a big deal. And people look at it as harmless, but it's, [00:44:50] it's one door that opens up people to the soul. That's so necessary. So let me ask you something when you're [00:44:55] working with clients, um, I imagine most of your male clients are probably watching porn. [00:45:00] Um, how many of them are masturbating, like compulsively, or regularly?
[00:45:04] I noticed the people that [00:45:05] suppress the feelings of sadness and loneliness are the ones that find themselves on porn the most. Sadness and [00:45:10] loneliness, yeah. Interesting. And I often noticed it because, and even for me, I wasn't a porny, but I was a [00:45:15] womanizer. Right. And I noticed I had this thing I call Broken Neck Syndrome, [00:45:20] right, where you're like this.
[00:45:20] Yeah, swivel head. Swivel head? Yeah, right? Yeah, whatever you want to call it. And it's when I'm [00:45:25] experiencing sadness, I swivel head. Because I found that the best antidote to that was through [00:45:30] experiencing women. And anyway I could, and it wasn't just sexually. But it was just in avoidance of the thing that I was feeling and [00:45:35] experiencing.
[00:45:35] And so, I noticed, like, even when I was with this other girl the other day, I'm, I'm like, [00:45:40] I'm exceptionally loyal to the people I'm with. If I have a problem, I'll tell them. If I don't like it, I'll leave. You know, I don't have [00:45:45] any problem with those things, but I'm not an easy person to be with by any circumstance.
[00:45:48] And I remember, I was like swivel heading, and [00:45:50] I was like, why am I swivel heading? And it was like, because none of my needs are getting met in this relationship right now. There's an aspect of [00:45:55] her that's not vulnerable at all. And then when I noticed that, all the attention went back to her. [00:46:00] So it's actually about noticing your behaviors more than it is the behavior itself is the problem.
[00:46:04] Yeah, but this [00:46:05] is where you impressed me, because you're 24? 24? Yeah. Dude, what 24 year old has that kind of self [00:46:10] awareness? That's fantastic. One with great parents and a good system of values. So how do you cope with the sad [00:46:15] I mean, if you don't mind me asking. When you identify, okay, I'm swivel heading, [00:46:20] I'm sad.
[00:46:20] So now you're present, but how do you then go deal with the sadness afterwards? Oh, the [00:46:25] sadness is always associated to an aspect of me that can't connect. There's there's a certain point where yeah, there's [00:46:30] there's an aspect of me that I'm not owning right anytime Or you don't own a part of yourself You are reinforcing that you can't have [00:46:35] the connection you want because connection it can only happen and intimacy can only happen if it's fully You and [00:46:40] fully hurt So there's an aspect that you're hiding the aspect of hiding is what creates a lot of that shame [00:46:45] So when I was able to realize okay, I'm stuck in a pattern.
[00:46:47] I'm doing the exact same things I'm getting the same [00:46:50] dialogues. I'm talking to the same girls and I'm getting the same outcomes cycle [00:46:55] Okay Identify your behaviors and what you're in avoidance of. That's [00:47:00] always the thing that you got to pay attention to. Yeah, right. So I noticed I was swivel heading when I didn't want to feel and [00:47:05] experience sadness.
[00:47:06] Around whatever it was. I was experiencing. I needed to be willing to experience it at [00:47:10] all. And that's what most people do. They're like, wait, experience sadness with and they look at the tunnel and they see light. They're like, I'm [00:47:15] down. Yeah. Right. And they're like, no, you're a piece of shit. That's not vulnerability.
[00:47:17] That's right. Are you willing to be you in the [00:47:20] dark if there was no light at the end of the tunnel? Right. It's really going to give you perspective about how real you are. Yeah. [00:47:25] And you're real when you're willing to do everything that you would do. If you would quote Diana Cross. Um, or I would [00:47:30] say completely dedicate your life as if there was no outcome to anything outside.
[00:47:34] That's right. [00:47:35] That's when you're truly free. And we often don't know that. That's actually when you truly become you. So when you're willing to do [00:47:40] everything that you would do in the dark. Yeah. And so I realized that myself and just even this, this whole [00:47:45] thing, I was like, God, there was so much sadness. And I was like, why?
[00:47:48] I never allowed myself to experience sadness. [00:47:50] Why? I saw his weakness. Well, what happened after a girl hurts me? [00:47:55] I got another one. Right. Yeah. Where would it take me to [00:48:00] places I was afraid that I couldn't handle? And that's the faith part. Are you [00:48:05] ready to go experience the most pain that you possibly, by the way, may break you?
[00:48:09] Are you ready? [00:48:10] Yeah. Do you know how many people will say yes? None. Which is why I think self help has too much vanity in it. Yeah. I think that [00:48:15] people need to start incorporating more humanity in it in order for it to mean anything. And so I remember I asked myself that [00:48:20] question. If it breaks me, it breaks me.
[00:48:21] This is the truth. The truth sets you free, but it will [00:48:25] burn shit off of you. Yeah. And I remember one, once I saw that, I realized how much sadness I had. I [00:48:30] had so much sadness because there was, well, a few things, one not being able to experience it. You could [00:48:35] experience emotions in two ways. Do you know, releasing emotions?
[00:48:37] How about you try releasing emotions? [00:48:40] Right. So you see how it's like you can contextualize a sexual expression to an emotional [00:48:45] expression that could allow you to integrate the two. Yeah. So, um, I'd find myself [00:48:50] looking to release it. Yeah. Right. Get it out of me. Yeah. And I'm, I can, semen [00:48:55] retention is not a problem for me.
[00:48:56] I've mastered discipline. So when, that's the thing that's really good about knowing if you've, [00:49:00] if you've experienced the truth about yourself, you can really face the music. Right. So for me, I was like, [00:49:05] okay, it's not disciplined. I know it's not surrender. I know it's not this fuck. Okay. If I've done everything that I could, [00:49:10] I put my face to the ground.
[00:49:11] Right. And so I did. And what I realized was there was a lot of [00:49:15] sadness. I never allowed myself to experience because I couldn't allow myself a lot. People to see me that way, [00:49:20] and I believe that it had no utility. I believe that experiencing [00:49:25] emotions and humanity itself and weakness manifested in sadness or [00:49:30] some form of authentic expression was a problem to maintaining and achieving success.
[00:49:34] [00:49:35] And so when, how do you think you challenge that belief? By experiencing and processing your emotions. You are now showing [00:49:40] up for yourself. Showing that that reality by which you experience your [00:49:45] humanity is the only reality by which you achieve success. That's right. So there's the actions that you [00:49:50] have.
[00:49:50] And so then of course the next thing was actually realizing like, Oh, I'm attached to something. [00:49:55] I was attached to connection. And so this is something I noticed recently even with a girl. If you're willing [00:50:00] to be vulnerable with somebody, check this out. You can actually confront your core level traumas.
[00:50:03] You don't need to get married to them either. And you [00:50:05] also don't need to have sex with them. You can realize that if you are willing to be vulnerable with somebody, you're willing to [00:50:10] show the things that you cannot dignify to them. And this is the thing I often tell most people, like you [00:50:15] want to integrate your porn addiction.
[00:50:16] You want to become somebody who can really have deep meaning, loving connections [00:50:20] to the person that you're attracted to. And you respect be the ape that you are or the thing that [00:50:25] you reject. Yeah. Be those things in front of the ideal and watch what happens. [00:50:30] And then that'll show you how real you are.
[00:50:31] And I was realizing it was like, why am I getting upset that I can't bond with [00:50:35] this person? The way I want to, and then I felt sadness [00:50:40] because there was a narrative around what, what I, what I've created, [00:50:45] which is who I am, can't get this. But what was that ultimately attached to control? [00:50:50] And I think the thing that I found was very interesting was I was attached to connection.[00:50:55]
[00:50:55] The connection itself is something I held over my own authentic expression. Talk about that. [00:51:00] What, what, what, what connection? Like the emotional connection, the emotional connection, right? You really love [00:51:05] somebody or you tell yourself you love somebody. And this is something I wanted to talk about, right?
[00:51:08] The big problem with porn is that it doesn't allow [00:51:10] you to accept people the way that they are. That's right. It makes you see them in two molds or in a series of [00:51:15] categories that allow you to control them. Yeah. You always have a kind of a control that you compare everything else to. Yes. And [00:51:20] so let's just say a girl, for example, displays high sexual qualities.
[00:51:24] but also [00:51:25] high emotional and foundational qualities. For example, the way you want to raise your children, you [00:51:30] will run away from that, right? Because you can't control it. It doesn't fit within the [00:51:35] categories. Yeah. Because most men don't know this. You get connection by the girl that you don't care about that you sleep with.
[00:51:39] And you also get [00:51:40] connection by the girl that you care about, but you don't really aren't sexually attracted to. So you see how you're creating a world by which you're [00:51:45] not there. Both of them are what metrics of control fueled by fear. Interesting. And so, I had a lot [00:51:50] of that fear right around not being in control, right?
[00:51:52] You could be devastatingly rejected, but if you're willing to commit to [00:51:55] yourself in the shadows and do all of who you are and what you are in the face of that rejection, [00:52:00] it never made a difference to begin with. And so ultimately through the midst of it, I realized I was experiencing [00:52:05] sadness because there's been something I've been creating myself.[00:52:10]
[00:52:10] I've been doing that. And sure there's a level of sadness on that and I'm not afraid to present it [00:52:15] or express it. You should be sad when you live in a world like that. Yeah. And [00:52:20] often we go, well, why are you sad? Right? Why not? You know what? Most [00:52:25] people's reaction to me when I was sad was you just look beautiful.
[00:52:29] And I had [00:52:30] people tell me that you're so real today. And I know that's crazy. I'm literally so sad [00:52:35] because if you don't, if you don't feel it, I [00:52:40] never allowed myself to feel it. Every time I would feel sadness, I would associate it to some sort of powerful [00:52:45] doctrine. Sadness doesn't exist without joy. Or how about this one?
[00:52:48] The one that I had, which was great. [00:52:50] This sadness is here so that I could connect to my humanity deeper to help others more. [00:52:55] Right. Do you hear that? Yeah. That's psychotic. It almost like you [00:53:00] questioned my own integrity, but it's not, that was a metric of control to not feel and [00:53:05] experience things. Right.
[00:53:06] That are changing me beyond my own understanding. It's the same thing as vulnerability to get the likes [00:53:10] on. Yes. Vulnerability to get the likes on Instagram. Dude, there was this one girl I was coaching and she's like, you know, I'm very [00:53:15] vulnerable. I do my live streams and I cry. And I said, dude, those are crocodile tears.
[00:53:18] Yeah. They're not talking about the shit that you [00:53:20] like. And I said, because you don't have an emotional issue. You have an aggression issue. Right. How about you show them how angry and [00:53:25] critical and harsh you are of men. Start there. Oh, that's not vulnerability. That's [00:53:30] disgusting. Right. My vulnerability is exceptional dominance.
[00:53:33] Hmm. [00:53:35] airtight dominance. Okay. Not for everyone. And you know, cause I realized I [00:53:40] became this, like, everyone's like, you're so understanding, so integrated, spiritual chicks love me, [00:53:45] secular chicks love me, religious chicks love me. And I'm like, I'm fake. I'm [00:53:50] fake. Huh? Because actually, if I was truly who I am, I'd be vulnerable.[00:53:55]
[00:53:55] So that's the true state of vulnerability. It's not something you just express. It's something you are. Yeah, that's right. You first [00:54:00] started with expression, and then it becomes a state of being. And, uh, yeah, I mean, dude, it's, [00:54:05] it's been a fucking journey. I'm 24, you know, the goal is to get married, have children, you know, but [00:54:10] honestly, I threw that up too.
[00:54:11] And the thing that I was attached to was connection. You know, I wanted to make her that. And I realized that [00:54:15] that's stopping me from connection because the one girl that I knew I loved was the one person that I accepted in every which [00:54:20] way possible. And I also accept that she wouldn't be my wife. So although it's kind of wild [00:54:25] when you say it, but when you take that ball, that lands in your court, the thing that you've made your God, yeah.[00:54:30]
[00:54:30] Throw it into the bright blue sky and watch it fade into the darkness. Yeah, because guess what? [00:54:35] You're free. You're free from that too. Yeah, and I think that's our core core [00:54:40] belief Everybody doesn't understand that the things that create a lot of conflict are actually in [00:54:45] Conflict of the thing that they believe the most about themselves, which is to be free Now waking people up is what [00:54:50] I practice because I think at the end of the day, you know People are so unaware of their behaviors and how destructive [00:54:55] it is.
[00:54:55] And I think porn is the number one forerunner of people thinking it's harmless when it's been the number one [00:55:00] deteriorator of mankind because it's been associated to the most [00:55:05] harmless. And then now you open up your tick tock and you have girls jumping up and down.
[00:55:08] Thinking that that's not going to [00:55:10] have a primal response on men. We're going to go, Oh, wait from Tik TOK. Oh, to Pornhub. Yeah. [00:55:15] And, and then of course the women are going, what do you talk about? It's Tik TOK. It's harmless. But all of these things are an association to one [00:55:20] thing. How can we make men and women so weak that when it comes time for them to come together and build anything of [00:55:25] absolute value, they won't know how.
[00:55:26] Yeah, right, right. And so I noticed that often social media is a [00:55:30] funnel to Pornhub. And people don't know that because you actually haven't set the appropriate boundaries [00:55:35] with it because if you understood how you are being seduced by those things and actually women are [00:55:40] just going to respond to what men want, whether they like it or not, which is what I was telling you earlier, which is, yeah, [00:55:45] women will just respond to what men want and then they'll think that this is what they want, which is to exploit [00:55:50] themselves.
[00:55:50] And then they will hang around the men that tell them that who don't care about them. Yes. And so really [00:55:55] what we're seeing right now is probably the loneliest generation because we are looking at, we're looking [00:56:00] at things with less and less intention, slapping the label of fun, thinking that that's the thing that you can [00:56:05] do or harmless.
[00:56:06] Yeah. No, these things need accountability. Yeah. I was just downtown the other day [00:56:10] with a girl talking about how Instagram has been destroying women. So how social media has been destroying women. Yes. [00:56:15] And. And it all came to my attention because I realized that all of these things are actually [00:56:20] anti human approaches by which we connect It's in the name of connection.
[00:56:23] Yep. He's diluting right how we [00:56:25] can name of virtue Falsehood in the name of faith [00:56:30] Fear. Yeah, right. And so now you're out here like whoa, this is a confused [00:56:35] world You could sit down with a therapist and that's the devil, right? And you could go to a doctor and that's the guy that kills you [00:56:40] Yeah, right and you could find yourself a guy that presents himself as a Oh, I'm the sweet loving guy and he's the dude [00:56:45] that beats you.
[00:56:45] Yeah, right. And then you're like, well, I'm against all odds. And it's like, well, how [00:56:50] about start searching if truth itself? Yeah. And starts with us. Yeah, [00:56:55] man. It's a good word. Starts with us. [00:57:00] You said something earlier that got me thinking, and this is something that I often say, if, if [00:57:05] porn is digital heroin, social media is its gateway drug.[00:57:10]
[00:57:10] And wow, you talked about how social media is affecting women, but we often [00:57:15] don't talk about how social media is affecting men. Oh, for men, it's all porn. It's porn and dopamine trashing. It's porn. [00:57:20] I would actually say it's porn. And there's, but then there's a second piece where guys are [00:57:25] basically getting told here's what you should be.
[00:57:27] And here's why you suck. Interesting. So in the relationship to [00:57:30] men, what social media does is it feels shame. Yeah. Which is exactly what porn does. It feels shame. [00:57:35] Yeah. So I like to circle it and call it all porn because the guy that you see with a tight black t shirt and a Rolex and a [00:57:40] sports car, that's porn.
[00:57:41] Yeah. And the person that's telling you how he's achieved this life at [00:57:45] 24, that's porn. Yeah. Because all of those things are to create a larger distance between you and yourself, [00:57:50] which is what you're familiar with because you've never given love. Yeah. You've investigated why you haven't either. [00:57:55] Yeah. And so The whole umbrella itself of social media is there to create a [00:58:00] disconnect between themselves.
[00:58:02] Because look, if you're having a good time, you know, you're like, today's about me. [00:58:05] Gonna watch a movie, hang out, and then your friends show you the club. And then they're like, dude, you missed out. Post Malone was there, we were at [00:58:10] his table. Now you're like this. And so I noticed that myself, I couldn't spend [00:58:15] time in my own company.
[00:58:15] I couldn't spend time doing the one thing I enjoy the most. I love writing, I [00:58:20] love reading, and I love hanging out. Those are my top three. I used to be [00:58:25] surfing, partying, going to the next place to bachata. So I like those things. But the things that I [00:58:30] love are right in front of me. And that's the conversations I could have with wonderful people.
[00:58:34] It's [00:58:35] the thoughts that are coming through my head on a constant basis. It's the feeling and experiencing of the walk [00:58:40] itself and all of eternity that has never been separate from us. And so I guess I've become more boring, [00:58:45] but I love it. No, but it's, it doesn't matter. It doesn't like boring to [00:58:50] who. I never even questioned it, dude.
[00:58:52] I'm tripping on acid. [00:58:55] But that's the whole point of it, right? It's like, and this is exactly what we talked about at the beginning. It's, [00:59:00] it's socialization that actually kills us sometimes because we resist [00:59:05] the thing that we so desperately need in the name of acceptance, in the name of [00:59:10] popularity, in the name of it's boring, when in reality it's beautiful, you know, and if we could really [00:59:15] accept what is actually beautiful to us and what makes us beautiful, then.
[00:59:19] Social media and [00:59:20] pornography are like, they're nothing. They're dust. It's dust in the wind. So that's kind of what I [00:59:25] noticed is that majority of the clients that I work with get off social media after I work with them. Yeah. Because they're so [00:59:30] involved in their own life and they're so busy discovering every single aspect of themselves that they've abandoned.
[00:59:34] [00:59:35] They have so much catch up to do. How can you look at anybody else's life? Yeah. And that's the most beautiful thing. You've got so [00:59:40] much catch up to do. How can you look at anybody else's life? And then when you look at it that way, you're like, Oh my God, I get to a [00:59:45] hundred percent associate to this thing.
[00:59:46] You, you no longer look at your emotions as something separate. You go, one second, [00:59:50] bullshit. Yeah, we're good. Let's move forward. Right? That's right. Yeah. Cause [00:59:55] once you know the real thing, you can smell the counterfeit a mile away. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that's the thing. I looked at you. I was like, dude, I [01:00:00] can't do this screen shit with you.
[01:00:01] I'm not rewarding the porn world. You know, I had a whole [01:00:05] lecture about porn or real. And you know, like a lot of the time people look at too hot to handle, especially men. And they're like, dude, this guy's got [01:00:10] game. Like I actually heard that. And I was like, you think that's real? Yeah. I was [01:00:15] one second. I grabbed his face.
[01:00:16] I was like, You think that's real? Yeah. [01:00:20] And it was like, the most concerning moment of my life, to which people are actually starting to [01:00:25] question reality. Yeah, that's right. And to where they're looking at porn, and they're [01:00:30] going, oh, this is real? Bang Bus is real? Right. You could just do that? Yeah. [01:00:35] You could if you owned it, by the way.
[01:00:36] Right, yeah. But you're not going to do that, so you're living in a world by which other [01:00:40] people are, and you're not. Dude. That's exact. But see, and this is the world we live in now. [01:00:45] AR VR, what are they? They're all distortions of reality, brother, dude. If I didn't get [01:00:50] off porn and I found out about AI, I wouldn't be on this.
[01:00:53] I wouldn't be here right now. [01:00:55] Yeah, it'd be a mess. It'd be over a hundred percent. Me too. Because it's playing into human [01:01:00] nature's curiosity about the, the, the spans of, by the way, even your potential, a [01:01:05] manifest in porn, right? You think about your curiosity. Yeah. Imagine you had that for yourself. Well, that's [01:01:10] exactly it.
[01:01:10] And now you do with AI, right? Yeah, it's like what you were describing something so so beautiful [01:01:15] earlier You're talking about how we have these desires right and we we repress them Religion or something [01:01:20] else tells us well, I often notice that this is an association to religion, right? The thing of easiest access is [01:01:25] often porn in the environments that protect people the most which are religious environments So like I told you religious [01:01:30] environments is where people are deteriorating the most And people think that secularism isn't its own religion.
[01:01:34] It [01:01:35] is Yeah, but even atheism is its own religion. They isolate people giving them [01:01:40] the most convenient option Which is always the worst. Yeah, so you almost need to be willing to [01:01:45] live with faith, which is like, okay The walls can't be too high to cover the Sun, but they can't be [01:01:50] too low for people to trample Yeah, so perhaps maybe you got to find out what level you're at Yeah, [01:01:55] exactly If your desires imagine your desires are like a 10 foot hole in the ground and every day [01:02:00] you get to dig a little bit deeper And you find out those desires Pornography is like [01:02:05] the 10 foot hole in the ground.
[01:02:07] That's just two degrees off. [01:02:10] So you're, you're, you start digging and it kind of feels like it's basically the same thing. You know, it [01:02:15] feels like it's discovery, but it's the opposite of discovery. You're actually completely [01:02:20] off the path and you're furthering the distance between you and yourself in the name of curiosity, right?
[01:02:24] Because it uses the [01:02:25] most beautiful systems, the seeking systems and reward systems and then the reward systems. Yeah. And [01:02:30] along with. Sex. Sex and seeking systems are the same systems. Yeah. And so, you're taking the thing that [01:02:35] drives you in life, and you're digging it two inches off to the right, into nothing.[01:02:40]
[01:02:40] Yeah. But see, two degrees at the beginning doesn't seem like anything. But once you're nine feet [01:02:45] down, you're miles apart. You're miles apart, and that's the whole thing, you're miles apart. And so, um, AR, [01:02:50] AI, VR, all of these things, they give us the illusion of like, oh, I'm [01:02:55] exploring my desires, because I can get exactly what I want, exactly the way I want it.
[01:02:59] But what [01:03:00] you don't realize is they're, they're, they're like trails. It's like we were talking about earlier. The [01:03:05] clues of your trauma are in your triggers. It's in the things that excite you, the things that you look for. [01:03:10] But, again, the further you go, the further you are. [01:03:15] And what I wanted to, I wanted to ask you this earlier.
[01:03:17] My question to you is, let's say I come to you, and I'm [01:03:20] nine, I'm nine feet in. And I think this is, these are sexual, I think this is [01:03:25] me. This is, this is my world. Yeah, you've identified with it. And you can, because you're very perceptive, it's pretty [01:03:30] obvious. Yes. So you can probably tell dude, you're, you're over there, who you really are [01:03:35] is actually over here, right?
[01:03:36] Like, miles apart. People usually, when you say that to people, [01:03:40] you'll see fear in their eyes. Because they know it. Of course. How could you not? They'll do, they'll like, they'll [01:03:45] get sheepish and cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The voice quiets, or they deflect the [01:03:50] conversation, right? Men don't like that at all. I'm sure you've got tons of clients, right?
[01:03:52] Tons of clients who try to take you off. We need to go [01:03:55] there. Not only do they hate it, They feel and experience all of the things that they've been [01:04:00] rejecting in that moment. And they are left with either two choices. I trust this guy or he [01:04:05] slaughters me. I understand both. How do you get someone to bridge that gap?
[01:04:09] That's [01:04:10] what I wanted to ask. How do you get them to bridge that gap? Yeah. Well, I'd say that just like a generalized statement. I would say that [01:04:15] for any guy that's like, Oh, I'm so separate from who I am. It's being able to communicate who you are. You've got to [01:04:20] start with your mouth. It's the ultimate integrator.
[01:04:21] Why? The things that you speak. Because you're bang on, but I want, I want to hear [01:04:25] why, because I don't think people talk about this enough. You bring it to the light. You bring it out of the shadows. You become [01:04:30] aware of who you are. And also, by the way, who you are is the split too. And I think that people don't know that.
[01:04:34] Because [01:04:35] that's the part of you that wanted to investigate it beyond its own purpose. Right? [01:04:40] So there's something beyond that that has made you do that. So I often notice that people who have the ability to [01:04:45] communicate the things that they desire to people around them are often the people that can bridge the gap [01:04:50] between how they feel about themselves.
[01:04:52] So there's a guy you look at. He's nine feet apart [01:04:55] from maybe being the most intimate thing. I think that a lot of the time people look at it as, you know, you gotta dig up and then [01:05:00] back through. I actually applaud you that you create even, you just, you come to it. You build a [01:05:05] bridge to it. Dig across. Yes, because now what you've created is more ground discovered.
[01:05:09] And that's using [01:05:10] the analogy here. Yes. You discover more of this ground about yourself. You won't regret it. And that's [01:05:15] what I think a lot of people live with, right? They go, okay, I listened to Jordan Peterson. I got married and I [01:05:20] had kids and I'm going to hustle this one through. It's just a matter of time before you break.[01:05:25]
[01:05:25] And I think that people don't understand that. It's like you want to take upon responsibility [01:05:30] that you're not connected to. Watch what happens. You've got to know what you're doing when you're doing it. [01:05:35] And you have to understand the responsibility that will come and you will handle it. So it's [01:05:40] really about this, because I feel it's thought for me whenever speaking to those people, I give them the immediate [01:05:45] challenge that immediately gives them an opportunity for them to come closer to themselves.
[01:05:48] Yeah. Right? For example, [01:05:50] there's two ends of the spectrum. You have the guy that's very insular, right? He runs and hides and stays, plays video [01:05:55] games, stays at home. Best thing you can do is just get him to go out in the world and get rejected. [01:06:00] That's it. That's his bare minimum. Get rejected. You're not desirable.
[01:06:02] You have no game. You have no ability to communicate. Okay. [01:06:05] We're going to put you out in the world and you're going to get so much fight, so much fight, so much fight, etc. I understand there's a lot of things to be afraid of, [01:06:10] but this is the time by which you become a man. There's the other guy who goes, yo, I'm 36, [01:06:15] I made like 6 million last month, you know, and I'm like looking at him like this, like, [01:06:20] okay, you don't think I see through this.
[01:06:21] Right. Um, and, you know, [01:06:25] just like been lately having a lot of relationship problems, right? Which is a good thing. First guy coming in for those kind of things. [01:06:30] And then I'll talk about the things that they want in relationship to the relationship they have [01:06:35] and I will see fear that I've never seen before.
[01:06:37] So there's a certain point where people need to be willing to make [01:06:40] this leap of faith for themselves. And usually it starts like this. Oh, you're not satisfied? None of [01:06:45] these things? You don't like her? You find her not desirable? But you like a lot of things that she [01:06:50] represents? Why are you talking to me?
[01:06:51] Why not talk to her? Fear. Right? [01:06:55] And so I often notice that people know the answers to their problems. The things that you want to experience, you often [01:07:00] experience with the trauma, and that's why you can't communicate it. You're experiencing it with a 10x factor that doesn't [01:07:05] allow you to communicate. So often that guy goes, oh shit, you're right.
[01:07:08] You know, what if I told her she wasn't the hottest [01:07:10] girl I was with? What if I also told her that I think she'd be a good mother, but the sex isn't that great? [01:07:15] What are you telling to yourself? That you were this close to settling for less before you came here on this call? [01:07:20] And then there's the other guy, which is pretty much living in a state of ego.
[01:07:24] Both of them are [01:07:25] in a state of ego, protecting something that is fundamentally going to require vulnerability. But at the end of the day, if you want to be [01:07:30] truly successful, you have to truly know who you are, because that's exactly what makes success, success. [01:07:35] You know, you have a big penthouse, but honestly, you fucking hate the city, you're a loser.
[01:07:38] Yeah, right. [01:07:40] Yeah, so you got to really consider the things that you want and need and perhaps maybe put your ego aside to discover a Lot [01:07:45] about yourself and I think that men need to live with a state of protection to be perceived as strong But all they are is [01:07:50] weak. Yeah, because women can see under that shit Well, if you can't protect yourself, then you can't protect anyone else.
[01:07:54] Exactly, [01:07:55] right? If you if you can't show up for the things that you have how the hell can you show up for anybody else? Exactly. If a woman wants emotional [01:08:00] security and the idea of emotions frighten you You're not aware that being around a woman who's emotionally connected is like being around an earthquake [01:08:05] Right.
[01:08:05] You better be able to understand what she's feeling and experiencing and provide some sense of security. [01:08:10] Yes. There are amplifiers in every sense of the words. They will make you, they will amplify things deep, deep inside of you and you'll [01:08:15] go, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's this? What's this? Uh, woman, woman, cage, right?
[01:08:18] Yeah, yeah. That's not the answer. The answer is, oh, [01:08:20] shoot, it's bringing up things. Yeah. Let's work through this together. Yeah. I'll bring some order, let her be chaos and let's do [01:08:25] this. So do emotions still scare you at this stage in your life? I [01:08:30] resist some. Yeah. I resist, um, sadness, pain. [01:08:35] Um, for a little while it was doubt and uncertainty.
[01:08:37] Okay. I honestly think my life became boring when I [01:08:40] rejected it. So I kind of became familiar with how like doubt and uncertainty is something you want to live with, [01:08:45] actually. Yeah. It keeps you excited. Yeah. You don't know what's going to happen. That's beautiful. [01:08:50] Let me surrender to it. Let me fall into the moment.
[01:08:52] You know, and then I think sadness and pain was a very difficult [01:08:55] thing for me to experience because I would always struggle and I would make it dignifying. I wouldn't just [01:09:00] make it very clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I noticed that I'd always struggle and be like, and this is why [01:09:05] I'm like this, or I'm like that, or here's a grandiose idea in association to my suffering.[01:09:10]
[01:09:11] Don't dignify it. You'll learn a lot about yourself. And I realize [01:09:15] not jumping to conclusions, being able to feel and experience those things. I'm still learning, clearly. And even sometimes I [01:09:20] notice myself and just my behaviors, and I just internally question why. Because I want my intentions and motives [01:09:25] to be real.
[01:09:26] I don't want to spend my life running from things that will control me. I want to [01:09:30] confront it. I want to face it. And I want to do what's right. And that's going to stop me from doing that. Yeah. [01:09:35] You and I are wired similarly. I think we're very driven by our ideals. So I mean, that's the [01:09:40] only thing to have, right?
[01:09:40] I think so. So I want to ask you, because we were talking a lot about the [01:09:45] deviations from ideals and men in our society and whatever, and you just made an interesting statement. You said [01:09:50] someone who's really successful, someone who knows who they are, they're willing to accept it and they go [01:09:55] after what they want in life.
[01:09:56] Do you have other ideals? Like when you're working with a client, you know, you have a guy, you want to take him on [01:10:00] a journey, how do you know he's, he's made it to that destination? What, what are the [01:10:05] markers that a guy is actually, you know, successful? Cause I think, I think we should paint a picture for the audience.
[01:10:09] [01:10:10] I had somebody who came into my office, it's [01:10:15] remote, came into your zoom room, came into my zoom room and [01:10:20] everything he presented was like, he knew it all. So I told him, I said, well, then you [01:10:25] should be just fine on your own. Clearly you don't need my help. Um, Would you rather [01:10:30] I tell you what's really happening versus what you've told me?
[01:10:33] There's the real answer and the right [01:10:35] answer. Drop the right answer. Start being real. And then the right answer will present itself. That [01:10:40] takes humility. Because you're going to need to be real for a long time until you start [01:10:45] looking cool. Okay? Because in your head, that's what you call cool. In my head, that's real.
[01:10:49] That's the only thing [01:10:50] I care to find. It's a manifestation of God. It's the most beautiful thing we can be. It's what we are made to be. [01:10:55] Yes. So, I find it very interesting because There was [01:11:00] somebody I had that had all of these things, but wasn't fulfilled at all. And I [01:11:05] often don't ever go, it's because you have those things.
[01:11:07] No, I go, that's great. Achievement's achievement. You're a [01:11:10] winner. Congratulations. I won't discredit. There's no need for discrediting. But what I will establish is, [01:11:15] the way that you've done it is the complete and total opposite of how you wanted to do it. There was one [01:11:20] guy I was working with. He was in Dubai.
[01:11:21] He was an OnlyFans manager. And he was really, really [01:11:25] wealthy. And he had all of the shame around what he did. And we were trying to work on purpose and fulfillment. And I [01:11:30] was like, hey, look, buddy. Have you told anybody that that's what you do? And [01:11:35] he goes, fuck no. I said, well, then congratulations. You'll never discover anything real about yourself.
[01:11:39] The thing that [01:11:40] you dedicate all of your time to is the thing that you hide the most. Are you going to start [01:11:45] telling people what you do and owning it? Or are you going to start changing the things that you do? And then of course, now his beliefs around wealth came up [01:11:50] because he believed that he could only do things unless it went against himself.
[01:11:53] So that manifested in his career. Wow. [01:11:55] So there was also somebody who's working for a really big firm, a finance firm. And this was really unfortunate because [01:12:00] he just kept always looking, what's the next business thing? What's the next confidence thing? What's the next tactic thing? [01:12:05] And I slowed him down to a point to where he told me I had been just experiencing sadness [01:12:10] and, and grief.
[01:12:11] Like I've never experienced in my whole life. [01:12:15] And my response to him was good. Every time you got on a flight and you thought you were 007. [01:12:20] Every time you hooked up with a girl. Every time that you had any kind of achievement. I want [01:12:25] you to know, this is really how you felt throughout all of it. And I was here to stop you because you were going off a fucking cliff.[01:12:30]
[01:12:30] And you knew that. You called me to find your purpose. You better find you first. And that'll start [01:12:35] presenting itself real quick. And so most people don't know who they are because they've never actually experienced the things that they're [01:12:40] experiencing. And you're telling me that that's not a relationship to who you are?
[01:12:42] The problem is the identification of these things. To say I'm a [01:12:45] sad person. means I'm rejecting the sadness I experience. To be somebody who [01:12:50] experiences sadness means I'm a human being, like everyone. And often, [01:12:55] you know, when you go through a breakup as an 18 year old, you don't want to be seen as sad.
[01:12:57] Yeah. You know, you got people to impress. Yeah. [01:13:00] You're, you're a big time CEO. You're a father of many. You [01:13:05] don't want people to see you as quote weak, but remember you're the person that created that paradigm Nobody else [01:13:10] did and you just live in a world to where you're not allowed to be. Yeah, that's why it's so exhausting There's nothing [01:13:15] exhausting about being yourself.
[01:13:15] It's quite literally what you're made to be. Yeah, it is quite literally what you're made to be Yeah, [01:13:20] yeah, just takes time to get there. Doesn't it? It takes a lot of time to get there I [01:13:25] think it takes, you know, don't confuse time with intention I think it takes intention [01:13:30] to get there because I'm 24 true.
[01:13:32] I feel that I'm on my right path. Yeah, you [01:13:35] are and And I have, I'm hit with resistance and stuff, but I [01:13:40] don't, I think the greatest gift is life and then I'm given another day to explore it. You know, I'm too caught up in that. [01:13:45] I'm really too caught up in that. And I, I love getting lost. I love getting lost in that [01:13:50] because where's the rush?
[01:13:51] Nobody gets off alive. Yeah. [01:13:55] I'm going to switch gears. Sure, let's do it. What do you think a woman should do if she [01:14:00] finds out her guy's watching porn? You should confront him. [01:14:05] If you find that your guy's watching porn, just immediately go, Hey, I noticed you were watching porn, [01:14:10] and I recommend that when you do this, ladies, don't be hard for critical.
[01:14:14] You're [01:14:15] going to shut him down. Maybe you don't understand this, and your natural reaction is to do that. Take a [01:14:20] deep breath. This is the man you love, okay? If you want him to be honest with you. [01:14:25] Create a space by which he's not punished for it. This is who he is. The same thing goes for you, [01:14:30] ladies. If he doesn't reward you being honest with him, he's going to punish you for who you [01:14:35] are.
[01:14:35] So ultimately, when this does happen, which it will happen, in any way or [01:14:40] another, be sweet, kind, affectionate, and accepting. Because believe me, [01:14:45] on the other side of that conversation is a wonderful sex life. Yeah. [01:14:50] Yeah, it's true. Because you go, what were you watching? And he goes, that. And you go, interesting.
[01:14:52] What does that mean to you? What do you feel when you watch those things? [01:14:55] Right. Yeah. Why are you watching it? And, and sure, you could gauge it this way. Is it worse that he cheats or watching porn? [01:15:00] I believe that it's personally both kind of cheating. Yeah. I just ultimately think it's different based off the kind of woman that you're with.[01:15:05]
[01:15:05] Yeah. Some women would rather you hook up with some chick that you don't care about. And other women would [01:15:10] rather you just watch some harmless porn. But it's all based off the things that they believe are socially acceptable. So at the end of the [01:15:15] day, it's both a form of cheating, one way or another. Most women would prefer neither, I have to imagine.
[01:15:18] Both, yeah, yeah, yeah. That [01:15:20] woman is like, yes! Do you want to know what all women would hate, though? What's that? [01:15:25] When there's an emotional bond. Hmm. Like you went out with your secretary to [01:15:30] the place that you guys first went on your first date. That will kill them. Right. I think that you [01:15:35] watching porn once will make them go, pfft, fucking rat.
[01:15:37] You know, and then like get over it. But yeah, [01:15:40] ultimately, I'm not here to dedicate to differentiate between anybody's [01:15:45] sensitivity levels. But that was a really good question. Ultimately, there is something there, an opportunity for you guys to get closer. Yeah. [01:15:50] And I noticed that myself. It's like, Oh, you got caught.
[01:15:52] Be kind, sweet, affectionate, you know? [01:15:55] And the same thing goes for anything that you want in life. And even for men, you want to create a space by which you guys [01:16:00] can confront these things without the aggression and harshness. Because you don't want to reward bad character [01:16:05] in the face of really vulnerable subjects.
[01:16:07] You want to start showing people how you want to be treated in these things. And if, [01:16:10] for example, you were caught doing something sleazy, for use of a better word, [01:16:15] how would you want to be spoken to? Yeah, true. And especially in [01:16:20] sexual environments. If you reject him in a sexual environment, you will not be sexually satisfied.
[01:16:24] [01:16:25] No. Because most women don't know that, but it's, you want to be dominated by men in the bedroom. Across the board. [01:16:30] All status tests, all studies have shown, all studies have shown the [01:16:35] natural basis of, of male and female, which is women like to be dominated. [01:16:40] Men like to dominate, right? And I found it very [01:16:45] interesting that the sexual rejection often creates more distance between the man and that woman than anything else.
[01:16:49] [01:16:50] Because of that? Yes, Because the man can't dominate and she can't be dominated? Well, for example, if you, for example, reject him [01:16:55] sexually, right? In some sort of way, which could be in relationships with porn. He likes that he, he [01:17:00] doesn't like that he likes it. Remember that. Right, true. And that might even be in some form of sexual expression.[01:17:05]
[01:17:05] Yeah. And when you immediately respond to it without any understanding, right, which is what [01:17:10] exactly what it would be. By the way, think about it. If you gave him understanding, how much more understanding of your own fetishes that you could also meet in [01:17:15] that relationship if you presented them, if you didn't criticize them like you criticize him.
[01:17:18] Yeah. And often that's what [01:17:20] creates a lot of men running away from the relationship and often going to other women because the sexual space itself has [01:17:25] already become a, what are you doing? Hmm. So the second they started becoming him [01:17:30] himself or the beast in any way and the best representation of it. She rejected it.[01:17:35]
[01:17:35] So he will go elsewhere. Because anything you reject, you redirect. Anything that [01:17:40] you accept, you can, you can, you could explore. That's good. Yeah. [01:17:45] Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. That's also something I want to like kind of talk to you about, right? Yeah. [01:17:50] As strong as my ideals are, my, my desires are as powerful.
[01:17:53] My desires are as [01:17:55] powerful. My core value is freedom. I have the capacity to look a girl in the eye [01:18:00] after she does something I don't like and just go, honey, this is done. This is over. Yeah. Like you don't get another chance. [01:18:05] Yeah. And she goes, well, why? You're Mr. Vulnerable. Cause I don't want to, you know, and that, that could be [01:18:10] that, that could slaughter people.
[01:18:13] You know, I also need to be really [01:18:15] real with myself of what I'm experiencing those things. But there's a certain point where you're, you're met with such an intense desire, [01:18:20] which is the desire for life, you know, and I even say most Christians don't like this, the lust for life, which is, I think the tightest [01:18:25] relationships you can have.
[01:18:25] Yeah. And then there's the ideals. I, my whole [01:18:30] life, if I didn't have the ideal, I would be lost. Yeah. [01:18:35] I'd be left to my own vices with zero guidance. Yeah. And so just even having that ideal, [01:18:40] which I understood to be a strong father. Who's connected to his masculine with a wife who's [01:18:45] connected to her feminine who's a wonderful beautiful strong mother And then you're like if I didn't have [01:18:50] that I'd be left to my own vices I would never explore it because I would never need to [01:18:55] why there's nothing for me to achieve in relationship to this sexual desire [01:19:00] So I really felt that and it was like a really difficult thing for my life because often I always felt rejected [01:19:05] by that Because my my my monkey ape was in direct opposition to the things that I [01:19:10] wanted You And often when I would try to present it to the thing that I wanted to get rejected and that's [01:19:15] why I understood that the journey is done alone until eventually you bump into [01:19:20] people.
[01:19:21] The right people. Yeah, the right people. And that's why I kind of said it's done alone [01:19:25] until eventually you're, you're surrounded by the right people. It is interesting, isn't it? [01:19:30] Because we do, we do the things that harm ourselves and we wind up around tons of [01:19:35] people, which is ultimately what we need, even though we've never been lonelier because we're rejecting our [01:19:40] true selves.
[01:19:40] Yeah. But then, to accept your true self, you [01:19:45] have to be lonely first. It's, it's the most isolating thing you can go through. Yeah, it's truthfully a [01:19:50] paradox. But, the end of that journey is communal in [01:19:55] nature. Like, it never ends with, I accepted myself, and I was alone the rest of my life. [01:20:00] It's, I accepted myself, I was alone, and eventually I found people who accepted me for who I [01:20:05] am.
[01:20:05] But, not every guy makes it through that journey, or, or woman. Right. I [01:20:10] went at it alone. I found myself, accepted myself for who I am, found [01:20:15] others who accept me for who I am. Yeah. You can experience the state that you're in, [01:20:20] and you can never challenge it, and that will be who you are. [01:20:25] And deep down, you will tell yourself this isn't who you are as you survive until your [01:20:30] deathbed is your salvation.
[01:20:31] Or, you set out on the journey, find who you are, [01:20:35] accept him or her. Yeah. Yeah. And then find who you're made to be with. But that was after [01:20:40] you found you. Yeah, that's right. And I believe the biggest moral responsibility is that people understand their wants [01:20:45] and needs. And I say it's a moral responsibility.
[01:20:47] Yes. And I say it with so much intensity, because if you [01:20:50] don't know what you want and need for yourself, you are going to be your biggest fear about what you would do to [01:20:55] others. When you discover that, you realize how dark you are, number one. Which is also, by [01:21:00] the way, as you start to grow up, you realize darkness is the thing you run to.
[01:21:02] Because that's where unmanifested light is. So [01:21:05] you're like, come on, come on, come on, come on, into the light, into the light. I want you all, I want all of it, I'm not leaving a thing [01:21:10] behind. That's good, man, yeah. And so now your relationship with darkness and light has become one of transcendent. As in it's [01:21:15] no longer one or the other, one is bad, one is good.
[01:21:17] It is, these things are simultaneously here together [01:21:20] to create something beyond my own imagination, beyond my own belief, beyond what I believe is capable [01:21:25] for not only me to achieve, but for, for me to feel and experience and change the way that I see life. [01:21:30] Because maybe pigs can fly. And I think that's what the ideal really represents.
[01:21:33] It's what if it is real? Yeah. [01:21:35] And I think that's the only thing we're striving towards. Yeah. I was thrilled to hear you talk about doubt earlier. You talked about you're [01:21:40] learning to embrace doubt, right? Something like that. And it's, it's interesting. I was, um, I was on an [01:21:45] interview with a guy named Josh Trent.
[01:21:46] He's got a podcast called wisdom and wellness. We were talking about this a little bit about [01:21:50] the mystery, just the mystery that comes with life and the society we live in [01:21:55] today is very anti mystery. They want an explanation. They want to study. They [01:22:00] want kind of the evidence, right? And this is a bit more of a spiritual context, but our ultimate conclusion in this [01:22:05] conversation was Those who lack mystery in their life worship a god their [01:22:10] size.
[01:22:10] Because Who said that? I did. That's Is that you? [01:22:15] That's, that's me, yeah. Can I steal that? Sure. Yeah, I'm gonna steal that. Yeah. Yeah, [01:22:20] those who lack mystery in their life worship a god their size. That's a profound, profound [01:22:25] quote. And that's why I'm so happy to hear you talk about embracing doubt because you have to.
[01:22:29] [01:22:30] You're not in a bubble, you're not in a vacuum. Every single person I've spoken to in relationship to self help has been [01:22:35] vain. They make it about their method, their understanding, and their God that they've [01:22:40] created that other people worship, that keeps them within the same continuum. Yeah. That pretty much you become a cult leader versus a [01:22:45] divine leader.
[01:22:45] There's a very subtle difference between the two. One is the, exactly the resistance of the [01:22:50] mystery, the thing beyond, right? Yeah. Which by the way, people go, wait, what are you guided by, Mr. Leader? And you're like, [01:22:55] By this thing that that I faintly feel on a good day. Yeah [01:23:00] And then they go. Oh, I don't like that.
[01:23:01] I want a guy that says I am the god. This is it This is it. I am your [01:23:05] pharaoh. Yeah, right and then people go get on their knees and they worship it. But really it's like That [01:23:10] person is the most doomed the one that says that because he's doomed to worship something That's his size his size [01:23:15] exactly feels so insignificant.
[01:23:16] Yeah insignificant is a cute word to describe the feelings [01:23:20] that that person experiences Yeah, exactly So What's important about what you're saying [01:23:25] embracing doubt is that's how that's how we grow and again like for me the [01:23:30] Model if you will is Christ likeness, but I believe we're uniquely made. [01:23:35] We're fearfully wonderfully made.
[01:23:36] You know, that's scripture and Embracing [01:23:40] that the only way you actually step into your fullness is It's by first, like you said, [01:23:45] finding darkness that needs light. Yeah. It's finding the unfound places that need [01:23:50] discovery, that need articulation, the communication like we were talking about earlier. It's finding those places [01:23:55] that are really hard to explain.
[01:23:57] I don't really get it, but I know that there's [01:24:00] something there for me and I'm going to explore it a little bit more. Instead of staying here where it's comfortable and I can [01:24:05] explain it all, it's socially acceptable. You know, it kind of ties everything together that we've been talking about today. [01:24:10] The, this whole embracing of mystery that, to me, like this is it.
[01:24:14] This is where we actually [01:24:15] grow. That's exactly where life is beautiful. And the mystic, you know, I've fallen to the world of [01:24:20] reason and I was disappointed by how small it is [01:24:25] because it was your size. Yes. And then I realized that all I want is to surrender to the mystic cause that's where all the [01:24:30] beauty is.
[01:24:30] Yeah. And I believe that people lack that mystic. You know, they're, they're, they're an avoidance of chaotic [01:24:35] nature, avoidance of dark nature, they're an avoidance of the unknown. and then they find themselves in the most comfortable. [01:24:40] deteriorating, sad, lonely environments. Yeah. Because they've eradicated themselves from what [01:24:45] literally probably 99.
[01:24:45] 999 percent of the universe is, which is the opposite of reason. Yeah. [01:24:50] Yeah. Beyond our own comprehension. Yeah. So let me ask you, when you [01:24:55] look five, 10 years down the road, 10 years from now, you're going to be my age. That just strikes me as profound. Don't, don't hit me with [01:25:00] that. Sorry, man. Sorry to put it in perspective.
[01:25:03] I'm just, I'm really [01:25:05] astonished because you're, you're so wise for your, for your years. What do you think is going to happen with [01:25:10] the masculinity conversation? Because, yeah, what do you think? Because we're in an interesting time, [01:25:15] right? Where men can't be men without being ostracized. And maybe that's a good thing.[01:25:20]
[01:25:20] Because men should be ostracized for being men. But for not being [01:25:25] men, they should be ostracized for immorality. We're being ostracized for what we are. [01:25:30] Yeah. Which is any display of masculine tendencies is now considered controlling, aggressive, overbearing, and [01:25:35] too dominant. Yeah, that's right. And, and that's only run by men that want to [01:25:40] separate you from them.
[01:25:41] Yeah. Again, it's, it's warfare. Yeah. It's not cute. But [01:25:45] the, on the flip side, I think the, I actually kind of like the resistance. Like, you [01:25:50] can't imagine the kind of resistance I get talking about pornography. Really? What does that look like? I get, I get it in all the, [01:25:55] feminists hate me. I get religious, religious people come against me.
[01:25:58] Uh, like everyone in [01:26:00] between. You know, cause there's, it's, it's different. That's so crazy. Yeah. Like you're so home, [01:26:05] like there's nothing you could say that you wouldn't be accepted for. It seems strange to me too. Yeah. But I guess [01:26:10] the, the interesting thing is I, I think it's the world we live in and I, I choose to embrace the [01:26:15] resistance and I think it's good for men as well.
[01:26:17] Like if there's an environment where you want to forge [01:26:20] masculinity, this is the environment where it's never been. Oh, for sure. Well, yeah, it's not going to be, it's going to [01:26:25] get what you call forged masculinity. Fact checked it's going to be a shit test it exactly your [01:26:30] masculinity cannot just be masked with tattoos and a nice car and big muscles Yeah, you're going to be challenged.
[01:26:34] It's [01:26:35] such a deep internal level Yeah That even women will see what's under the surface and men who are [01:26:40] very insightful will also see what's under the surface meaning you can't Hide from the things that you're feeling and experiencing exactly I believe that [01:26:45] now more than ever is an aspect for men to conquer the feminine and that's everybody out here They [01:26:50] are going to do it internally through a manifestation of their emotions.
[01:26:53] If a man can create security through his emotions, he could [01:26:55] be guided by them. And if he's guided by them, he's guided by something higher. Now, what is a woman? If not an embodiment of all of [01:27:00] those emotions, he creates a much larger playground for him and her. [01:27:05] So he's created a much larger potential for his achievement in his life by fully integrating himself.[01:27:10]
[01:27:10] The aspect of the feminine makes masculine, masculine. And I think what people have been living with now is [01:27:15] that they think masculine is void of feminine. That's not masculine. No. Feminine [01:27:20] is not void of masculine. That's not feminine and people need to understand that is that actually we're [01:27:25] composed of both and now people can distort these things by going, well, you could be this androgynous thing, male, female thing.
[01:27:29] No, you [01:27:30] could be a male, female. No, that's bullshit. What you're doing is you're disproportionately putting it out of balance. [01:27:35] Yes, they exist within perfect balance. And by doing that balance, which is composed of one another, you create [01:27:40] something that is effective as it is not alone because they exist together, [01:27:45] right?
[01:27:45] So there's a true transcendent understanding here, which is Now is an opportunity to be the most masculine [01:27:50] you could ever be, because you could understand what it is. And then once we do, there will be a revolution, and once there is, nobody will ever talk [01:27:55] about this again. We will have other things to face and confront.
[01:27:57] But really right now, [01:28:00] beautiful opportunity for us to understand this aspect of ourselves, that we can contribute more. The true leader, and I'll leave [01:28:05] it here for men, is the one that is composed of both. Two worlds. You take the [01:28:10] archetype of Moses, he is the archetype of the leader. He is drawn from the water.
[01:28:14] From one [01:28:15] mother to another. , double the mom power. Okay. Bcia, [01:28:20] the daughter of Pharaoh, raised him like a son and was also [01:28:25] fed and nurtured by his birth mother. Jewish [01:28:30] mother, Egyptian mother. Hmm. Two mothers. And also you could even say two [01:28:35] worlds. He grew up a prince in Egypt, and then he had to realize his roots.[01:28:40]
[01:28:40] Yeah. And then he, now he's a man of both worlds, right? So what do we often do [01:28:45] as men? We're like, this is one way, right? And it's like, if you saw both, you'd realize [01:28:50] who you can lead. Yeah. And then that's you first and foremost. And of course, through this understanding of [01:28:55] stories, which I recommend everybody to understand about themselves, is that the true leader is the one that is composed [01:29:00] of twice the masculine, here it goes, and three times the feminine.
[01:29:04] [01:29:05] Yeah. Hmm. And then you're like, well, wait, what's that about? And they've done this research with champs, [01:29:10] which is fascinating. The alpha male champ isn't the strongest. He's twice as strong [01:29:15] as the average champ. He's twice as intelligent as the average [01:29:20] champ. Male champ. Yes. He's three times more empathetic than the female [01:29:25] matriarchal champ of the troop.
[01:29:27] Wow. So there's this aspect [01:29:30] of us that makes us sensitive, right? Empathetic. Why I feel a lot of sadness. [01:29:35] And I was rejecting that. Yeah. I feel so deeply for others that I was worried that if I felt so deeply for them, I'd feel so deeply [01:29:40] for myself and fall into a depression. My strength would be useless, would be useless if I had no empathy.[01:29:45]
[01:29:45] And so I realized the person that is from two worlds and has a deeper understanding of it is somebody who could truly lead. [01:29:50] So perhaps maybe the masculine is composed of the feminine, not in rejection of it. And that's what makes him [01:29:55] transcendent. His ability to communicate, his connection to his emotions, his power and passion is [01:30:00] connected to something that is beautiful.
[01:30:02] And then by doing so. She's no longer [01:30:05] existing in isolation. Yeah. And then of course it leaves room, by the way, for a woman to step in. [01:30:10] Right. Is that why men are so powerless today? Oh, for sure. I think men are so powerless today. And I think there's a [01:30:15] few things for that, but, what really makes men powerless is that they're constantly rejecting the thing that they are, which is the force [01:30:20] of danger, right?
[01:30:21] So if you reject that, and then you also reject that, you need to have your [01:30:25] emotions on lock. And when most men go emotions on lock, they think locked in. No, it means [01:30:30] controlled. And men are going to be afraid of anything they have not learned to control [01:30:35] And men need to know that about their desires. They need to know that about their emotions This does not mean repress or [01:30:40] suppress It means learning to control.
[01:30:42] Yeah, it means learning to direct them It means learning to be the [01:30:45] force of order in the world providing the guidance and protection and security along with support Yeah, [01:30:50] and with that what you create is an open space by which there can be creativity There can be longevity [01:30:55] there can be beauty and of course there could be harmony between men and women [01:31:00] Nathalie Moses, what an honor, man.
[01:31:01] What an honor, you telling me, brother? It's been great meeting you, man. [01:31:05] It's been so wonderful. [01:31:10] [01:31:15] [01:31:20] [01:31:25] [01:31:30] [01:31:35] [01:31:40] [01:31:45] [01:31:50] [01:31:55] [01:32:00] [01:32:05] [01:32:10] [01:32:15] [01:32:20] [01:32:25] [01:32:30] [01:32:35] [01:32:40] [01:32:45] [01:32:50] [01:32:55] [01:33:00] [01:33:05] [01:33:10] [01:33:15] [01:33:20] [01:33:25] [01:33:30]