815 - Mike Novotny
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[00:00:00] [00:01:00]
All right. Great. Well, I'm here with Mike Novotny and, uh, man, love your message. Love your heart. Welcome to the show, bro. Hey, thanks so much for having me. So you just launched a book called Taboo. And I think, um, if ever there was a [00:02:00] need for a book like this, I think the time would be now.
I'm wondering if you can comment a little bit on the backstory and we'll, we'll get into the book a little bit later on in the interview, but I wanted to start here just cause Obviously, you know, you have a widespread audience and you saw need to start talking about some of these taboo subjects. Why?
Yeah. Yeah. So the book itself is just a compilation of like the hardest and probably most impactful messages I've ever preached as a pastor. Um, sermons that we've done and whole sermon series on anxiety, depression, suicide, alcohol, pornography, sexual intimacy, divorce, abuse, abortion, race, politics, addiction, and a couple other things just to make.
People sweat on Sunday morning. Just round it out, yeah. But, um, you know, really the, the heart to talk about that kind of stuff came from my own story that for many, many, many years, uh, I was a church going, Bible believing, Jesus loving, devotion doing kid who was also addicted to pornography. [00:03:00] Hmm. You know, so I was so hooked on that sin, not because I skipped Sunday church, but even though I was going to church.
Yeah. And, uh, not because I never read my Bible. Man, I I had memorized whole chunks on sexual purity from 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 and 1 Thessalonians 4, but, um, for, for my story, things really didn't change with my day to day habits until I reached out and started talking about the, the taboo, the embarrassing, the shameful thing.
And that was a, just a light bulb moment for me as a Christian, but also as a, as a pastor now that for a lot of people go, and I love church, um, and I love preaching and I love the Bible, but for a lot of people, A lot of things don't change unless they can talk about the tough stuff, the difficult questions, the taboo topics, and kind of on the other side of that awkward conversation is when God does some of his best healing and saving work.
Yeah, very true. I'm sure you know, like the numbers of porn consumption are [00:04:00] not that different inside the church than they are outside. Why, why do you think that is like, why do you think this is such a prevalent issue? And I realized your book covers a spectrum of issues, which we're definitely going to get into, but, um, you brought it up.
So I think it's great to start here. You know, it's relevant for our audience, for sure. Yeah. Why do you think pornography addiction is so prevalent despite going to church and despite being active in faith life? From a chemical, physical reason, because it's the perfect drug. It's the drug that's always in my pocket.
It's the drug that's. accessible and affordable, fairly anonymous and always available. Um, you know, if people are giving out fentanyl patches on every corner for free, I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of Christians were addicted to fentanyl. Right. You know, here we have this drug that because of smartphones and tablets and high speed internet access, like it's, it is the temptation you can't escape.
[00:05:00] Yeah. You have to learn how to resist it because you're not going to be able to get away from it in our world. Yeah, let's talk about that. What, what does it look like for a Christian to, to resist some of those temptations? A conversation I, I find I'm having with a lot of friends lately is even talking about like going to the gym, you know, and, uh, like places that are, you go to do something good for yourself and that can actually be really triggering, really tempting and You know, I have one friend in particular, this is how this conversation came up.
And, you know, he's, he's saying, man, I need to get in shape. And he's talking about going to the gym, but he's been doing really well in this area and his wife kind of brought it up, like, Hey, you know, I I'm all for you getting in shape, but is the gym going to be a problem for you? And, you know, he thought about it and he realized, you know, I, I didn't think about it, but now that you're saying it, yeah, that could be an issue.
And for him, he's like, well, I'd love to be ripped, but I would much rather walk in integrity. You know what I mean? So he's like having to make these weird decisions. Um, what's one, what's a person to do in this day and age, you know, when the, yes, we know we're supposed to resist, but the [00:06:00] temptations everywhere.
Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good question. So, uh, you might not know this. I live in Appleton, Wisconsin, which is. 30 minutes South of Green Bay, Wisconsin here in the States and Appleton and Green Bay year by year trade the title for the drunkest city in America. Like as far as like binge drinking bars per capita, like I live, it's a town of 75, 000 in the drunkest city in all of the United States of America.
And you know, I think about that, um, you know, um, that kind of addiction has never been my struggle, but for people who are alcoholics, like to just walk down the streets of our city. Um, to go to a church golf outing where there's, you know, plenty of alcohol. It's like, you can't, you can't get away from it.
And so I think for a lot of people who struggle with sexual purity, it's that same idea where like, I, I don't want to be led into temptation, but what do I do? And where do I go? I think we have to be really honest with ourselves about [00:07:00] convenience is a terrible trade off for sinfulness. There's a lot of things that are a little bit easier if we just assume we're going to be okay.
But we kind of have to be candid with our, you know, I like what your friend and, and his wife said that at the end of the day, if you're, if you're 20 percent more ripped, But you're 20 percent less pure. Do you want that trade off? Yeah. I'm guessing she would probably rather have a husband with a little bit of a belly and a lot bit more purity.
Yeah. And so, you know, for a lot of us, we'd say, well, I have a Netflix is convenient or having a smartphone is convenient or catching up on email. When I'm alone in a hotel room is convenient, but for a lot of us, it's the convenience that kind of leads to that first domino, you know, that That leads to the second that ends up in a spot that we don't want to be.
Right. So, you know, Jesus talked a lot about those who humble themselves would be exalted. And I think it takes a lot of humility to say, this might be [00:08:00] convenient. It might be easier for me to go to this gym. It might be easier if I fill in the blank. But you just gotta, you know, be a detective of your own patterns of temptation to say, hey, if this is a struggle for me, maybe the convenience isn't quite worth it.
Yeah, it's a really good point. And there is always, there's always a solution. Like even in that conversation, we were like, you know, you could just do YouTube workouts from home or, you know, buy some equipment, like, again, it's not the same as going to a gym. It's got the full suite of everything you want, but.
You can still take care of your body that way. And you know, you're right. Like it's, it's the priorities here. I wanted to ask, cause you use the word sexual purity and, um, even people in my space are revolting quite again, quite a bit against the use of the word purity in particular, you know, kind of like this anti purity culture because purity culture was so rigid, created a lot of toxic thinking and, you know, poor relationship with sexuality, which is now.
Led to, um, all kinds of, I would say, you know, deception and just unfortunate developments. [00:09:00] Um, what do you think about that? Like, do you, do you feel like, like, it's a good thing for us to revolt against it? I find myself in the middle personally, where it's like, actually purity is a biblical term, you know?
Like, I don't think we should be throwing this thing out, but I do agree, like what purity culture has represented the last two, three decades is something we need to detract from and redefine what, where do you land in all that? Yeah. Great, great question. Um, I come from a theological background that's all about, we sometimes call it the proper balance between the law and the gospel.
So, I'm always thinking in law gospel terms. And when I reflect on kind of like 90s, 2000 purity culture, it was so much law based. Yeah. You know, we couldn't find our ultimate purity in the sacrifice of Jesus in the gospel. It was, don't do A, B, or C or you're going to end up with consequence X, Y, and Z.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you just. The law is a good thing in the Bible. God's standards, like you said, this [00:10:00] biblical terminology, pure and impure, sinful and sanctified. I'm not against that, but I totally am against any kind of theological framework that overwhelms you or only gives you the law. Yeah.
Instead of balancing the law with the gospel, to say, you know, be sexually pure and if you fail, and you probably will, run back to the ultimate purity that we find at the cross. Yeah. And then motivated by the gospel, let it teach you to live a self controlled and holy life, like Paul talks about in Titus chapter two.
So yeah, it's, it, it's not bad of itself, but it's really bad by itself. And I think that's what happened a lot. Yeah. Can you unpack that a little bit more? I think that's a really good way of putting it. Like it's of itself. Okay. By itself. It's a problem. Well, what exactly does that mean? How does that translate?
Yeah, so I just had a ACL surgery. Uh, you and I were chatting before we went live here. Welcome to the club, man. Right? So when, when the surgeon [00:11:00] cut my body open, that was a good thing. But it would have been a very bad thing if he would have just left the room with me cut open. Hmm, right. Right? So there, there was a cutting that needed to be done to repair, but then he had to stitch me up and heal me.
I've always thought of that, the word of God is like a sharp sword and, man, the requirements of the law and the call to absolute holiness, it can cut you really deep. And that's not a bad thing. The conviction of the Holy Spirit, the burden that I just have to run away from sexual temptation. But if we only cut people with the standards, do this, don't do that, have these filters, have a pure heart, you know.
There's a thousand examples in the Bible and they're good, but if you just cut a person open in a sermon or in a podcast or in a conversation and don't kind of stitch them back together with the love and the mercy and the forgiveness of Christ, I mean, what you did, you're just, you're just letting a friend bleed out on the table, the spiritual operating table when, when, when they need, um, kind of [00:12:00] the healing stitches of the gospel, that's a really good way of looking at it.
So in your own journey, like you referenced how. You had your own struggle with pornography, uh, when you were younger, you're active, you're doing your devotionals, you're at church, you're doing all those things. What did that journey look like for you, um, in kind of this, I love this metaphor you just gave of like, how did you get, allow the word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit to cut you open, um, but not bleed out?
What does it look like to balance those two things? Oh, it's so hard. It, uh, actually just my, my sermon a couple of days ago on Sunday was all about Satan and, uh, I thought of Satan, you know, he has these two epic lies that kind of attack the law and the gospel. Um, he, he's either the great excuser or the great accuser.
Hmm. You know, on the front end, he's the great excuser. It's not a big deal. You've had a hard day. Your wife doesn't want to be intimate. You know, there's every reason why we can look at [00:13:00] porn today. Yeah, and then after you commit the sin, well, then he flips and becomes the great accuser. Can you believe you did this again?
You call yourself a Christian. You can't pray now. You can't go to church. Why would God like you or accept you or love you? And he's such a master at those two, those two lies, because they really get at the standards of the law and the comfort of the gospel. And I think that happened to me all the time where, you know, I take, I take sexual sin too lightly on the front end so that I wouldn't pray.
I wouldn't prepare myself. I want. You know, put on the full armor of God, but on the back end, wow, he was just a master. I just remember staring at my bedroom ceiling thinking, there's no way I'm a Christian. I believed absolutely in Jesus and Christianity, but how, how could a Christian possibly do this for the thousandth time in a row?
How can you say sorry another Sunday, another prayer, and do the same? He totally convinced me that the gospel had limits on the extent of its [00:14:00] forgiveness. And so, yeah, just, just knowing how to use the law and the gospel when. To be like serious about my behavior and when to stop standing in front of the mirror instead just stand in front of the cross.
I mean, to me, this is the ultimate spiritual exercise. Can you tell the difference between the two and do you know which one to run to in the moment? Yeah, yeah. And I used this word earlier, like sanctification has been a very helpful term for me to think about it. Because when I think about being sanctified, I'm like, Oh, that's actually a daily thing.
You know, like, It's helpful for me to just think about, like, if I can get 1 percent better every single day, I can be really happy with that, you know, cause I am getting better, I'm progressing towards the standards of God at the same time. It's only 1%, you know, and obviously it doesn't work exactly like that.
Like there's, you know, I feel like there's some things where it's like you check, you try day in, day out for months, maybe years, and then all of a sudden, a bunch of things click and you kind of get this acceleration. Like, I don't know that you actually get 1 percent better every day. I think it's just.
You look back and you say, man, all the, all the [00:15:00] hard work and time and effort I put in finally accumulates to something when you add it up over longer periods of time. And I think that's a really hard thing for us to do in today's day and age. Like you talked about how convenience quickly becomes an idol, um, in our society, I think in particular, like Western culture is very convenience driven from the way we have food to the way we experience church, you know, you're a pastor.
I'm sure COVID has changed the way people experience and engage with the church. You know, convenience has become a thing that factors into people's decisions. Like, am I going to go to church on Sunday? Or, you know, my wife and I, we have a new kid where we're new parents. So sometimes we find ourselves like, yeah, Oh, we love it, man.
We love it. Um, and, and some days we find ourselves on a Sunday where it's like, man, we're super tired. Um, are we going to go to our main church or our main church is a 25 minute drive, but there's another church closer by with a more convenient service time for my kids nap schedules and. blah, blah, blah, right?
Like we're so convenience driven. Um, so I guess, I guess maybe a question to all of this would be, you know, when you think about sanctification, um, [00:16:00] what, what do you find, like, do you find that more often you're having to talk to people from being too grace based, if I can use that language, where it's like kind of drifting to that, you're letting the enemy and his excuses sort of justify not good behavior.
Or do you find you're talking more people away from like, Hey, I think you're being a bit too rigid there. You got to be a little bit kinder to yourself. Yeah, great question. Yes is my answer. You know, isn't it? Um, I always think, you know, Satan, he's a master fisherman because he knows which bait works best.
So, you know, there are some people who are so hard on themselves who You just got to grab them by the shoulders and look them in the eye and say, no, you are forgiven because it's so hard for them to believe that. And there's other people who just, well, whatever. I'm human. I'm going to practice self care and self compassion and that's like, so self justifying that they don't, they don't realize that sin put the son of God on the cross.
Um, so I, I find it is so, [00:17:00] it's, it's what intimidates me about preaching is you got, you know, Not just one or two or 10 or 20, but sometimes hundreds. Um, we have a TV program that we do. So, you know, speaking to how many souls who are all in a different spot on that spectrum, but to be able to convict the comfortable and comfort the convicted, it's like, Oh, Holy spirit.
Like you got, you got to show up. Cause I don't know how to solve this puzzle. Cause yeah, everyone's just such in a different spot when it comes to their own sinfulness. Yeah. When, when you reflect on. You know, your journey, um, and I, I don't know exactly what it looked like or when pornography was no longer an issue for you, what would you say in hindsight where some of the, the big things where it's like, man, not everyone's going to have the exact same journey as me.
But if I could extract a couple of things that I think most people should include in their walk, uh, sexual integrity, purity, whatever language we're going to use here. Um, what, what would that include for you? Yeah. So one of my favorite passages, cause of my, my story is [00:18:00] James 5, verse 16, And actually the, the Greek, uh, they made me study Greek for, I don't know how many semesters in like college and seminary.
So I'm, I'm glad in this instance, because the, the, the passage, at least in the NIV says, confess your sins to one another and pray for each other so that you may be healed. And I found so much truth in that. It's, it's when I didn't just confess to God, but I confessed to other people that I found a lot of healing.
The actual literal Greek of the New Testament is, is a, it's called a present progressive verb. Which literally says keep confessing your sins to each other. So it's, it's a reminder that, you know, confession isn't a, a one time thing. Um, it's not just getting it out and like unburdening yourself. That for deep, like sanctified Christianity, confession is like a, it's a lifestyle.
Um, not that it has to be to the, you know, pastor or spiritual leader, [00:19:00] but just this, this idea that just like I try to pray continually and meditate on God's truth continually, that I just want to live. in absolute honesty with people that I know I can trust, uh, people that are going to hold me to high standards, but also going to remind me of my forgiveness in Jesus.
And I've really seen that. I've, I've been a part of like small groups or life groups for about 15 years now. Man, it is just amazing when people make that commitment to keep confessing. Um, sometimes it's the second confession that's actually harder because the first time you get the secret out and whoa, you know, everyone rallies around you, but then to come back and say, you know what, even though you were praying for me, I still did the same thing.
Yeah. Right. Like that, that's where it's like, dang, what a wretched man I am. Um, and I'm totally dependent on the mercy of God. So yeah, to your question, continual confession. To me, whether it's pornography or anything else has just been the thing that allows me to continually progress. Um, [00:20:00] doesn't fix it like a light switch, but it's kind of like a dimmer switch that, man, things just seem to get better when we keep on confessing them.
How have you found places for healthy and safe confessional? Cause I know this is a constant challenge. Like when I was a vocational pastor and we go to these pastors meetings and you could tell like pastors are just, there's just an additional guard, right? Because. Depending on what you're confessing, like maybe there's implications for you even having your job or whatever.
I mean, it was different for everyone. Yeah. Um, but as well, pastors are not the only people who maybe have a hard time finding those places to go and be transparent without a risk of being judged or reprimanded or, you know, maybe suffering bigger consequences than that. Uh, what, what's been helpful for you to, to find those places?
Yeah, so we have a, a set of, I think it's seven different values for our small groups. And I've really been amazed that when I share the values and then I lead with a kind of a vulnerable confession that it happened to me [00:21:00] this last fall, like everyone in the room was almost a total stranger that I invited from church.
And by the end of the night, like 90 minutes later, the most candid, like pornography, greed, I almost went to a strip club. Our marriage is barely hanging out. Like people were so unbelievably honest. And I remember closing the door looking at my wife saying that just happened. Like, holy god, that got deep, real fast.
So kind of what I learned is, you know, when I try to set the culture and, and you could do this in families, you could do this in a circle of friends, you could do this in an official small group. When I say things like, you know what, God put me here in your life to try to help you and vice versa. And, and if I don't know what you're really going through, I don't know how to pray for you.
I don't know how to encourage you. So, I'm going to make a commitment to be like a trustworthy, reliable person in your life. I hope you can do the same for me. And I'm going to be praying for you this week. So I'd rather not just throw up some generic prayer. Like, God, whatever [00:22:00] Sophia's going through, like, do whatever.
I'd rather actually pray for the real you. And I just find when you start, To try to create a culture of that. It's going to be honest. It's going to be real. And here's the reason why. Yeah. Nine out of 10 people open up really, really quickly. Yeah. That's a really good word. Yeah. And so these groups that you're having are with congregants, people that are in your own, in your own church.
Yeah. Amazing. That's really cool, man. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Let me switch gears a little bit and ask you about, um, suicide, you know, let's go for a lighter, lighter topic. I'm just totally joking. Yeah. Um, I lost, uh, three friends to suicide in high school. Um, so this area holds a really close place to my heart and, um, it's not actually as much of a deviation from talking about pornography or addiction as people might think just because people do reach these really dark and desperate places and don't always know where to turn.
What, I'm just, as a starting point, what made you include suicide in [00:23:00] your book? Why did you feel like this was a relevant thing to talk about?
I had a really, really great, um, church upbringing and theological education. There's a really short list of things that I think were wrong about what I was taught and suicide was one of them. What were you taught? One of the best professors I've had in my whole life, hugely influential on me. Um, in his mind, a person could not take their own life unless they had totally rejected Jesus from their heart.
That, that's what You know, no one would pull the trigger or, or no one would take a whole bottle of pills unless they were at such a place of despair that they had literally said, God, you do not love me. You are not for me. He believed that every suicide was an act of unbelief. And therefore, because of that, everyone who committed suicide went to hell.[00:24:00]
Yeah. Oh, and now I look back at that, um, I think part of the basis was there are five suicides listed in the Bible and all five seem to be committed by unbelievers. And I think the professor jumped from that conclusion to therefore, everyone, whoever does this is an unbeliever and has given up their place in heaven.
And just that, candidly, I don't believe that anymore. For some people, that could be the case. Yeah. They have no hope, no Jesus. But I've seen so much up close depression now as a pastor that you just realize when people get in a dark mental spot. They, they say things and do things and believe things that aren't really them.
It's almost like someone else that, that can't see the light and can't see the hope. So I, I absolutely can see how a Christian in a moment of really weak, Uh, a weak spiritual moment could take their own life, but still end up in heaven. Yeah. Yeah. How did [00:25:00] you reach that conclusion? What was, like, was there anything theological about it?
Like, you mentioned the five suicides that are referenced in the Bible, um, but they're not of believers in particular. But, what was it for you that allowed you to, other, I mean, you mentioned just seeing it, and I would agree with you, like, There's a whole spectrum of depression, and I think at one very far end of the spectrum is just suicidality, people reaching that point.
Yeah. Um, but anything in particular that really changed your mind? Yeah, when you're ministering to, you know, I didn't see a lot of suicide growing up, so maybe I hadn't wrestled with it personally. Yeah. But when it happens from a member of your church or my brother or my son committed suicide, pastor, do you, are they in hell?
And you, you know, it's not just a college paper anymore. Yeah. It's, well, yeah, what does God say about this? Yeah. Right. And then, you know, you run back to the Bible to say, is there, is there any passage that says suicide is the sin that can't be forgiven? Um, you shall not murder for sure. Um, Yeah. [00:26:00] To be clear, I think suicide is one of the most selfish things a person could ever, ever do.
Yeah. Um, it just, it devastates people in such profound ways. Like the people that care about you the most will suffer the most if you take your life. Yeah. Um, so I don't want to minimize the sinfulness or the consequence of it. But I've also realized that a lot of us maybe will die and in our last breath or thought we will be sinning.
Yes. You know, if I got in a car accident and like used God's name in vain right before I got T boned, I don't think Jesus would say, well, you know, you were a Christian, but you didn't have time to repent before that. Yeah, right. You just, you kind of analyze what people say about suicide. Well, you didn't repent of it because it was your last act.
And just going back to the Bible, I'm like, I, you know, I can't, I can't justify this theological position. Like I can say it's sin, but I can't say it's the unforgivable sin. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. I mean, I, I grew up in, um, uh, reform circles, uh, quite a bit. And, you know, for them, the emphasis [00:27:00] on unconfessed sin was a very big deal, obviously still is.
Um, and so even when we would pray over meals, it was always like, you know, forgive us of any sins we've committed today. And that sort of thinking, which I don't think there's anything wrong with. I think there's something really beautiful about that. Um, but it was interesting when we, there, it was somebody in our, in that group of friends who, who took his life.
We were only 14, 15 years old and these are the things we were wrestling with, you know, and, uh, I wish we had your book, you know, I wish we had somebody who was talking about it. So I think it's awesome, um, that you brought it up. Are you, are you witnessing from when you maybe first entered ministry to now?
I know you've been doing this for a while. Are you witnessing any kind of difference in the trends of suicidality? Like, I'm, I'm not really, um, I'm not in it a ton anymore, but I'm hearing that people younger are choosing to take their life a little bit more, um, but I, I don't know too much beyond that.
I'm just curious. Have you observed anything pastorally? To be honest, I've read more data than [00:28:00] I've seen stories up close. Okay, fair enough. Yeah, we can talk about the data too. That's great. It's, I just read, have you heard of Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation? Yes, yes. Yeah, I just finished reading that last week and he, he's trying to make the strong case that Gene Twenge from San Diego State and others have said that as soon as the smartphone became a regular part of childhood, that suicidality, depression and anxiety just like, it's crazy.
It was like a hockey stick curve of incidents. So yeah, Jonathan Haidt's actually an atheist. I didn't know that. So he writes this book, but he is like so nervous about what technology is doing to mental health. Huh. So it's not a spiritual angle from his point, but here's pretty fascinating. If you read the book, he says some of the best things that help your mental health are actually Christian practices.
Oh yeah, like what kind of stuff does he talk about? Like meditation and Um, yep, yep. Meditation, um, gathering together with [00:29:00] other people, singing in unison, Um, you know, open confession, like what we would say are some of like our key spiritual disciplines. Yeah, right. What do you know? It turns out it's good for humans to do the things that God says.
Man, crazy. That's crazy. So, um, I'm so glad you brought up the technology one, because I, you mentioned you go through 15 things in your book. I can't remember all 15 now off the top of my head. But do you talk at all about technology? Like, is, is there one that's centered on it? Or is it more woven through the different, through the different subjects?
Yeah, there's not a special section or chapter on it. Absolutely. When you get into pornography or when you're talking about anxiety, depression, when you're talking about infidelity, there's so many ways that technology just intersects with all those things. Yeah. For sure. Can you talk about that a little bit more?
What, how exactly does it intersect? We talked about pornography a little bit, but I mean, even intersecting it there would be interesting, I think. But then, yeah, you mentioned infidelity and some of these other behaviors as well. Yeah, for sure. I don't know. I, I feel it. I've, um, by the grace of God, I haven't battled a lot of mental health issues [00:30:00] in my life.
Yeah. Absolutely. I didn't get my first smartphone until I was 27, so I'm, I'm 43 now, so I Wow. Wasn't a part of my childhood. Well, you didn't have to say it like that at the end. . Wow. You're . I was like doing the math. I'm like, 27. I didn't realize you were in your forties. I thought you were in your thirties.
So that makes a bit more sense now that I know your age. Totally redeem yourself. Well done . Yeah, but I mean, even though during my most formative years when my brain was developing, I, I didn't have to deal with this. But I can still tell now that my brain just gets like, ah, itchy is probably the best way to say it.
I get, I get so used to grab the phone, open the email, check the news, check the score, check the weather, check the email again, check the news again. I don't even have a lot of social media, but I can just tell that my brain gets unstable is not the word, the [00:31:00] kind of, Just like peace and calm. And if that happened to me, when my first smartphone didn't happen till my prefrontal cortex was fully developed, I mean, imagine if you're 10 or 11.
the data totally makes sense to me. I'm like, I, I can feel my brain and my habits and my, my ability just to sit and just to be like, technology has so messed with that. So man, if, if you're a little kid with a tablet in the backseat of the family van and you're getting your first smartphone in middle school, like I, I, I see the benefit of it.
I'm part of a media ministry. So I, I believe in the power of technology to spread the gospel, but. There are so many things that just really scare me about what the devices can do to us. Yeah. And if I'm remembering correctly, I think in that book, I haven't, I haven't actually read through it, um, fully, but I believe they, they do make a recommendation, which is that if you are as a parent, if you are going to allow your kid to get introduced to technology, have their own smartphone and social media and [00:32:00] whatnot, it's, is it 16?
Is there, is there an age, does he make an age recommendation? Yeah. He has four big recommendations in the book as he thinks about the mental health crisis, and the first one is. Um, no smartphones until high school. High school. Okay. The second is no social media until you're 16. That's what it was. Yeah.
Okay. Yep. The third is no, no phones at all in schools. Right. Yes. You'd want to ban them all. And his last one is, uh, let your kids do more dangerous things. Okay. So, yeah. That's cool. I like that. Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah, yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Uh, do you have kids? Are you a parent? I have a daughter, Brooklyn, who's 15, a sophomore in high school, and I have a daughter, Maya, who is 14.
She's just about to finish eighth grade. Wow. Okay. So what have you, what have you done with your kids and technology? And I'm not, um, I'm not going to evaluate or anything, but this is something that I, I ask people about all the time, just because my wife and I are new parents and we have this conversation all the time.
And we're, you know, like we don't even really go on our phones or [00:33:00] watch TV when our sons around and we're We're trying to actually just work on our habits so that we don't have to just do that when our kids are around because obviously there's something about that that doesn't quite feel right. Like, we just want to be the same people, um, in their sight and out of sight.
Um, but I guess I'm just, I'm, I'm just asking really just for my own personal knowledge now at this point, but just what, what have you guys done with technology? What have you found to be helpful? That's a very interesting age group that your daughters are at right now. For sure. Yeah. Jump in the comment section and let everyone know if you think I'm a good parent or not.
You know, um, I've always been a big reader and so I've read double digit books on technology and its effect on the brain, and so I definitely came in as a parent, super cautious. And my, uh, my daughter was probably the last kid in our class to get a phone. We broke a little bit early. I was going to wait until 16 to get her first smartphone.
And, uh, she actually took dad's challenge and read the whole Bible cover to cover last year. Hey, [00:34:00] we let her get her phone at a 15 and a half. Yeah, but really, really minimal social media. My, my younger daughter, she has a device that she can like text friends, but has no other connection to that. So yeah, we, yeah, we really follow those guidelines of kind of high school driving age for, for kids and devices.
I was just listening to John Deloney, um, I'm assuming you're familiar with him, the Ramsey, he's the, oh, he's Ramsey personality, um, clinical psychologist, PhD guy, and so he, he answers a lot of questions more through the lens of mental health and wellness and all that stuff, um, and he is famous or infamous, depending on your opinion, I guess, for basically like not letting his kids have any, any technology, any phones at all.
Yeah. Um, and this was like probably about a year or two ago that he was being a lot more outspoken about it. Um, and he, you know, he was kind of like, I don't care if it makes my kids unpopular, I don't care how it affects their social life. They're, [00:35:00] they're garbage, they're toxic, it's not worth the risk, all that kind of stuff.
And I just heard him on a podcast probably like a week ago, and he, he realized he had gone a little bit too rigid. Um, and he was, he was thinking like, man, when I was 16, actually, if I wanted to get ahold of my friend. I just didn't have a smartphone, right? So it's like, yeah, it went a bit too far and he like, he didn't realize how much he had to ostracize his kids from their social lives.
And so they found a middle ground and I, I don't know if he installed a landline. I forget what he did, but he created some sort of, you know, means for his kids to have social interaction. Um, and he was talking about how, you know, his kids still know that when. They're, when they're over at their place, his kids and his kids friends, um, you know, they put all their phones in a big fruit bowl or whatever on the dinner table.
Like they still have rules at home, you know, to protect themselves. Um, but he kind of found that middle ground. So I I'm curious, you know, uh, 15 and a half, that's pretty impressive to go that long. Without a smartphone in today's day and age, what, how did your, how did your [00:36:00] daughter handle it? And were there any social ramifications for waiting that long?
Yeah. Um, you know, I was a little bit more hard line about it. And then you, you realize like, Oh man, for, for teenagers and especially for teenage girls, like your, your social connections are so huge. Yeah. And so when, when everyone else in my friend group was on the thread and they're laughing about the joke at school in the morning, but you don't even know what the joke is.
When the coach is communicating about the Saturday tournament and everyone is on the same social media app, except your kid. That's when it's like, Oh, am I, am I doing the right thing? I'm trying to protect their brain, their mental health. This isn't a black and white, good or bad, the devil didn't invent the smartphone or the internet.
Um, he can use it, but he didn't invent it. So, yeah, my wife kind of pulled me back a little bit. I can be kind of a black and white guy. So, yeah, I think that's why, you know, 15, 15 and a half happened instead of like 18 [00:37:00] or 16. When you turn 25 and your prefrontal cortex is finished, then I'll let you get a MySpace page.
Yeah. . Yeah, yeah. Of her girl. Don't read too many books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense, man. It makes sense. So I wanted to ask, 'cause um, another angle I guess, from all these taboo subjects that you're hitting on in your book. the realities of a spiritual life that is at play, a spiritual war. Um, and we've, we've kind of referenced the enemy.
We know that there is an enemy who wages war against our souls. I love the two kind of, uh, strategies you outlined earlier, which is either to be the great excuser or the great accuser. Um, and they obviously, you know, they function differently, but they have a similar impact. What, what are you equipping believers with today, like in your church or with your audiences?
to combat the wars, uh, or the attacks of the enemies, whether it's to excuse, to accuse, or, um, to deceive, manipulate, whatever [00:38:00] it is, um, what are you finding to be effective tools in the spiritual battles in 2024? Yeah. Yeah. I think we mentioned one before, um, when a person finds Christian community. When there's like an honest circle of people with a Bible open in the middle, um, man, that's half the battle to me.
I just preached this last week on Revelation 12, and, you know, it talks about the devil like this fierce red dragon with seven heads and horns and, you know, Revelation style imagery. And it says, you know, how furious he is because he can't beat Jesus and the good angels. So he's hurled down to the earth, filled with rage because he knows his time is short.
And right in the middle of that chapter, this line really jumped out at me, is, but the Christians triumphed over the devil by the blood of the lamb. And that struck me. If the devil's two big temptations are to minimize sin by excusing it, or to, you know, over [00:39:00] maximize sin by accusing us, it really is the blood of Jesus that kind of unveils both lies.
It can't be. If Jesus had to die on the cross for my lust, it has to be a big deal. Uh, you know, if the only solution for that wasn't to, you know, give me a second try, but literally God has to come down from heaven and die. Like, wow, that just shows to me the seriousness of my sin. And, if God died for me, how could, how can you accuse me of anything?
If Jesus, if the Bible doesn't say, and from the cross, Jesus questioned, it is finished. No, no, he cried out in a loud voice that declarative statement that it's finished. The price is paid and I'm forgiven. So what I encourage our church on Sunday is I want you to spend the rest of your life in with people and in places where the blood of Jesus has center stage.[00:40:00]
If you're going to go to war against this dragon, who is way stronger than you. And he knows for all of humanity, he's been in studying people just like you. He knows what works, but if you triumph over him by the blood of the lamb, don't be vaguely spiritual and don't just say, well, I talk to God when I'm out in nature, that's good, but you don't overcome him by the beauty of the trees or the majesty of the mountains, right?
You overcome the devil's two great lies by the blood of the lamb. And by the word of the testimony. So that's my encouragement. If you can stay in law gospel places that focus on the blood of Jesus, you have the best weapon to fight against the great dragon. Yeah, that's so good. Do you find that people are, because we were talking about this before we hit record, or at least I had mentioned, just a decrease in biblical literacy in general, and, you know, we have, um, we we've been part of communities in the past where Their definition of spending time with God is it is going for the [00:41:00] walk or it's putting some Christian music on the background and, you know, maybe processing some stuff, which I think definitely qualifies as God time.
I just think. Those are like good side pieces. You know, they're not main courses. Um, I think there's something about gaining to the word of God. I think there's something about really being concentrated on prayer. Um, and you know, my wife and I are worship leaders. We have a huge value for that kind of stuff.
Um, but I think the word in particular is getting neglected, uh, quite a bit. Certainly outside of the church, there's, you know, little regard for the Bible. And I think even within it, people are not as familiar with the principles of the Bible, the stories of the Bible, even just, you know, making their way through scriptures.
Um, I don't know if you've observed the same, but I guess my, my main question would be just in response to what you just mentioned, how do people find the truth through the word of God? Like what, what's a good place for people to start? Especially if maybe they hear that and they're saying, yeah, actually that is kind of me, you know, I admit like no one's really taught me or, um, I always got like a very watered down message.
I was kind of told that's [00:42:00] all you needed. That was good enough for people who are seeking the truth in the word of God. What, what's the right way for them to go about that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's this, uh, I think he's nine years old, this, uh, nine year old boy from our church named Ethan. And, uh, the other day he came to church in this, uh, sports t shirt.
I think it was one of those, like, Nike t shirts that said, uh, it said, humble and hungry. Okay. It's just kind of like, I'm going to get into the gym and like, I'm going to die. Yeah. You know, I saw that shirt as he's walking into church and I said, I thought, you know, when, when people show up at a Bible study or they show up at church and they're, they're hungry for God.
They want to learn and they're humble enough to say, I don't get it. Yeah. That that's when I see explosive spiritual growth. I mean, as a pastor, nothing makes me happier than when someone says, pastor, I was trying to read my Bible at home. I don't get this, this, or this. Can you help me? And I'm like, [00:43:00] yes.
But you know, finally, finally a question I'm trained to answer. So I would just say, maybe that's another great lie. The devil has that. You're going to look stupid. Don't admit that you're ignorant of this. Yeah. Like, don't, don't just smile and nod. Um, when we actually show up in spiritual places with other Christians, they love to share what they've learned about the Bible.
Yeah. Older Christians love answering questions that they've found the answers to. Yeah. And so, I would say, you know, praise God if you're listening right now or watching and you don't have a biblical background. Like, that does not disqualify you from having, I would say, the next 12 months of explosive spiritual growth.
If you're hungry for it and you want to grow and you're humble enough to ask other people to teach you. I guarantee, I absolutely guarantee that you're going to grow in some pretty profound ways. Yeah, that's really good. That's a good word for people, you know, just to circle back to the first part of our [00:44:00] conversation, people who are dealing with sexual sin in particular, um, and maybe, you know, like the one thing that we hear quite a bit, and we definitely observe this in our clients is that challenge to let go of your past, you know, I think cerebrally we can all Jesus has forgiven me, you know, my life is hidden in Christ, and all those things that remind us of that truth.
I think really knowing it in your heart is a different story. Uh, any scriptures in particular you'd recommend for people who maybe are either struggling with that or maybe a different facet of sexual sin, but nonetheless wanting to walk in greater holiness and greater integrity? Any, any favorites that you got that you'd recommend?
Yeah, so if you're, if you're watching on the video feed, let me grab something real quick. Yeah, yeah, do it. Oh, he's got a stack of them over there. I have a stack that I'm holding right now. These are 682 note cards. Okay. So, uh, a couple years ago, I went through the entire New Testament, and I tried to figure out the kind of names that God [00:45:00] calls Christians.
Huh. You know, sometimes Jesus would say something kind of negative. Oh, you of little faith. So I wrote that down. Or the Apostle Paul in Romans 7 said, What, uh, Here, that's the one on top. It says, What a, what a wretched man I am. So I highlighted every single time that Christians were described as weak or sinful, um, immature, whatever it might be.
And then I took another highlighter and I, every time God said something amazing about Christians, like you're holy, you're forgiven, you're saved, I went through the whole New Testament with both highlighters and by the end, I had 682 separate instances where God called his people different names. Some were negative and some were positive.
Um, Sophia, do you want to guess how many were negative and how many were positive? How many were negative? I'm going to guess 43. Shockingly. Yeah, you're close to right. Um, out of the 682 total times, only 70 times [00:46:00] would God say something negative about his people. Wow. And 612 times, 17 books of the New Testament.
God never calls. Even really, like, messed up churches, like, you got something to work on. Their identity wasn't based on their behavior, but he would call them, you're the chosen. Beloved, sanctified, justified, redeemed children of God who've been made pure by the blood of Christ. Wow. Um, so, so that shocked me that the, the Bible's very honest about our struggles with the right behavior.
But at the end of the day, the, the law and our obedience to it doesn't define our identity. So, man, I just encourage someone, if you're struggling with like receiving the gospel, just repeat my experiment. Start, pick a, pick a book of the New Testament and just see what God calls people like you. And you might be shocked that he is so gracious in identifying you not by your behavior, but by the blood of Christ.
Man, that's really fascinating. It, it almost gives you like a ratio. If you think about like your [00:47:00] self taught, because I think our self taught is so critical. Yes. And how often are we correcting ourselves and saying it's not good enough? And we probably have the inverse ratio, right? Where 90 percent of us is correcting and speaking against ourselves and 10 percent is maybe affirmative.
Um, but it's, it's basically the opposite, right? Like you're saying, yeah, 73 out of 682, like a little bit over 10%. Um, that's actually, you know, again, like I don't, I don't like the positive psychology of like, it's all perfect and there's nothing wrong, you know, like there is something to be said about acknowledging those shortcomings, but in the right perspective and the right proportions, that's really, really cool.
Yeah. After I did that research, I used to sign my emails, like, sincerely, Mike, A holy, redeemed, beloved, justified, sanctified, nine names, and then I get to the last one, who also happens to sin. So, I'm going to be like New Testament in my balance of like how I think about myself. I love it. I love it. Oh, Mike, it's such a good conversation, man.
So easy to talk to you. Um, for people who [00:48:00] want the book, it's called Taboo. Uh, it's available on all major platforms. And I know, um, you know, I know people will go get it and they should get it. What about for people who maybe want to connect with you a little bit more and find out more about what you're up to?
What's a good way for them to do that? Yeah. So I work with a media ministry called Time of Grace. So you can just go to timeofgrace. org. Um, we have a TV program. We have a radio show, lots of social media stuff. Um, I've published about 15 books now. So we try to tackle all the difficult topics. So yeah, timeofgrace.
org is where you can find everything about me. That's amazing. We'll put all the show notes. Uh, thanks so much for your time, Mike. Appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me. [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00]