Dr. Trish Leigh
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Sathiya Sam: All right, Dr. Trish Lee one of our most listened to guests of all time. Welcome back to the show
Dr. Trish Leigh: Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be here. So let's pick up the conversation where we left off a long time ago.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, yeah, I know man. We I just I was telling you before we hit record. We get so much feedback I had a guy come up to me [00:03:00] Um, just this last week, just raving about the content. And I think you, you're able to put language that a lot of men around the world, um, haven't been able to find themselves. So very grateful for your work.
Why don't you just give the audience a little update? What are you up to these days? And kind of piqued
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. So I'll, I'll, I will make it quick, but I'll start at the beginning in case there's listeners that don't kind of know what I do. So my background is in. My background is long and varied, but essentially I'm a cognitive neuroscientist. I have my own practice. It's a global impact company.
Thank God. Um, we're helping all over the world. It's an online business and people don't really fully understand that. They want to know how to get to me and you can do it from your home. That's the beautiful, um, piece. But the primary aspect that I am concerned with is. Brain functioning and optimal brain functioning.
And then what impacts us and creates brain dysfunction and makes it difficult for people to reach their full potential. So, [00:04:00] um, that landed me in, uh, helping people with pornography addiction, which then has landed me in helping people with sexual arousal dysfunction primarily. Um, so to that end, my practice has been growing.
Um, we now have more of a team approach where. I have multiple coaches. We're able to help people in, um, really a comprehensive way. I thankfully have just gotten a book contract a few months ago. Um, yeah, which is really exciting. Uh, I named the book Mind Over Porn, but we're going to be calling it Mind Over Explicit Matter to help people, you know, who might be Shy of the P word because that happens with people.
So that'll be coming out in March. Um, yeah, and we're using, um, one other thing I didn't tell you. We're using what I do is I use advanced, um, state of the art technology to help people, but I'm also creating a community called brain training one on [00:05:00] one. And my goal there is it's really affordable. It begins on May 1st this year, and it's a way, so if people want to learn more about how you can train your brain.
With your mind and your body, but especially with technology and it's technology, you can purchase and use at home by yourself. You don't have to work with me if you don't want to. It's a way that you can be in my community and learn how you can help yourself at home with mine and my team's assistance.
So we've put together a really cool community where there's content. Each month and it'll be based on a topic. It'll show you how to use technology to train your brain and it'll be there for the month. And then it goes away and there's new content. So it'll always fresh month to month. Yeah. So I'm really excited.
That's fantastic. I don't know how you do all the different things that you do I feel like every time I ask you what you're up to you got a laundry list But it's it's amazing in the last interview. We focused on Pornography the harmful effects on the brain how to heal your brain from it [00:06:00] I want to start with masturbation for this conversation because I think it often gets sort of put to the backburner um Um, even as like, I think even since you and I spoke, there's more of an emerging field and awareness of the harmful effects of pornography, which is fantastic.
Sathiya Sam: That's It's wild. You're right. Agreed.
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah, it switched a lot, you know, like Dr. Huberman's talking about it, and Jordan Peterson's been a huge advocate, um, against it, and it's been really cool to see some of these voices emerging. Um, I do feel like masturbation though often gets shelved, right? Like, I think, you know, There's good data behind porn addiction.
I think even just if you kind of tap into our logic a little bit, people can understand why this might be harmful. But as soon as you start talking about masturbation, all of a sudden it becomes very polarized all over again, even in that subset of people who think porn is bad. And I would just love to hear from your perspective, just because you're so informed.
You really think things through. Where have you landed on on this particular subject?
Yeah, actually I was. Where I landed was where I was immediately and it's not ever changed. [00:07:00] Um, and I do think part of the problem or the reason that masturbation doesn't go into a camp or another is because there is such a strong camp out there. That is advocating that masturbation is healthy for you.
So, and I will address that in one second that, you know, so there's so many professionals, which. You know, honestly, a long time ago, that was the one thing that would irk me. And I would reach out to those professionals saying, I would love to chat with you either personally or online and record. Because it was just like, it felt like propaganda to me for, for to get likes, basically, because to get to follow them, tell them what they want to hear.
And I'm like, we need to tell people what they need to know, not what they want to hear. So I do think people can wrap their mind around, okay, porn's got to go. But then when you address masturbation, they're like, no, no, no, no. You can, I can let the porn go, but we, we're going to [00:08:00] need to discuss
know exactly what you
So the idea is like, let's go back real quickly to, you know, porn's healthy for you.
Like you're going to see other professionals say. Is that the caveat there is that if you are a person who found pornography in adolescence. Let's just use it as an example. 11 or 12 years old, your adolescent brain became hypersexual. It's about hypersexuality. So when you found porn, the hypersexual seeds were planted.
And then if you kept watering those seeds over time, your brain has grown up very differently than if it wasn't exposed to porn and if you didn't keep consuming it. Consumption of porn is coupled with masturbation. So porn is, we know it's a supernormal stimulus. which means it is higher level mental stimulation for higher levels of dopamine. Now, when masturbation is coupled with pornography, it has become a supernormal physical stimulus [00:09:00] because it's more physical stimulation plus it engages fantasy from porn, which most people who have watched porn can't get rid of that. It's internalized. So if you take, you know, people who are the exact same age, have the exact same thing going on.
One person has a 20 year history with pornography and masturbation. The other person doesn't, the person who doesn't, doesn't have hypersexuality and doesn't have the potential problem of compulsive masturbation.
compulsive is the missing word in this conversation. So when you're talking about people who have struggled with pornography, They struggle with masturbation and they don't want to admit to themselves.
And you know what? I work with so many people that eventually they admit it to themselves, you know, and this is a process. It's not an event, you know, recovery is a process. So what happens is they come to terms with, yes, pornography is not [00:10:00] serving me. Eventually people get to the point where they're like, masturbation's not serving me and still, I'm a, I'm a realist, you know, I'm an optimist, but I'm a realist is that.
You know, I try to facilitate where people who really want to hang on to masturbation can come out of their heads and use it as an embodiment exercise. which I call a masturbation meditation. Yeah, I know it's cheesy, but you get the point is that you're connecting with yourself and you're using it to come into your own body and to stay with sensations and to be present, not to dissociate and escape.
And I've taught lots of people to be able to do that and then to decrease frequency. And again, it's like any addiction or compulsion, if you can do it with moderation. In that embodiment way, then go for it because then it's become a healthy habit, just like the person never got wrapped up in porn.
If you can't, it's gotta go.
Sathiya Sam: yeah. So [00:11:00] it sounds like what you're essentially saying is there, the studies that are out there that would suggest masturbation does actually have healthy benefits to, you know, your body, your mental health, whatever it might be, are sort of negating the whole early exposure to porn, compulsive behavior that's developed in people.
And if you were to parse the two, maybe those studies would still stand on their own. But certainly once porn's in the mix and there's compulsive sexual behavior, it's just not the case.
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. And you know what? That led me to a really wild, um, epiphany, which you may not care about, but I'm not even kidding when this came to my mind, I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like. A lot of science for the last 20 years is skewed because a lot of science in mental and physical health. If you don't ask a person, if they've consumed porn, you are, there's a missing piece to that science because porn does impact so, so like if porn's not in as a variable in those scientific studies, it's, it's not [00:12:00] valid.
I'm sorry. And then that led me oh my gosh, probably like all psychological studies for the last 20 years could be invalid. If it doesn't it as, it's a huge variable.
Sathiya Sam: it's kind of wild, isn't it? Especially now that we know how devastating it is to the development of the brain, the body. And it's like, yeah. How could you not account for this? I was having a conversation. I forget who this was with, but we were talking about infertility, right? Because there's this infertility crisis in America.
It's on the everybody's talking about, you know, EMF, electromagnetic frequencies. Everybody's talking about diet, you know, inactive lifestyle, people wearing too tight clothing and nobody's talking about pornography, right? how this stuff can actually be impacting their hormones. There was a study, um, my audience is probably sick of hearing about this, but I'll talk about it anyway.
There's, there, there's a study where, um, they surveyed a bunch of young men and they tried to see if there's a correlation between porn consumption and fertility. I don't know if you heard about the study.
Dr. Trish Leigh: mm. looked into it.
Sathiya Sam: Basically, what they observed is that, uh, men who met three criteria, [00:13:00] um, had lower sperm counts and poor semen quality, and the three qualities were early exposure to pornography.
I think it was 12 or under, uh, frequent viewership of pornography, which their idea of frequent was two times a week. So, you know, that's like nominal. Um, and then the third was that they coupled porn consumption with masturbation. Um, so that part I found really interesting because again, like, Nobody's really talking about that in the scope of porn addiction, but it's very clear, especially even coupling these behaviors together.
Um, even if there could be, I feel like even if you could isolate masturbation, you don't have the fantasy, you don't have that compulsive kind of behavior. I still feel like just physiologically everything else, it's just hard to imagine that's really best practice for
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah, and you know, again, like, my goal for people, because it's most people's goal, is that they find a healthy, happy relationship that they can develop healthy sexuality within. And so then, the question always comes from people who don't have that in their life. Or they're not, they don't have the opportunity [00:14:00] to have that in their life.
And there are, you know, extreme cases where people's spouses are sick for a decade. You know, I have a couple of clients like that right now. Um, people who are not allowed to get married until they're 30 or, you know, some cultures it's different. So, um, you know, there are people in those extreme cases for the 95%.
My, my communication is always consistent. You need to leave all of your self sexuality behind. Okay. And really get laser focused on what you want to create in your life. What do you want? And I always tell people like, you have to be intentional, decide what you want. And then remember you're creating your life.
You are through your choices every day. You choose to move towards that goal or away from it. So move toward it as much as possible and don't move away. And then if you're pulled to move away from it in terms of masturbation, you know, it's compulsive because people do really have a hard time, like [00:15:00] considering it to be a compulsive or addictive behavior in their own life.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah,
Dr. Trish Leigh: if I could just share one other thing, just to, and then back what you were saying about that study, it's just like smoking. Like smoking 50 years ago, you know, if you didn't put smoking into any health studies, it's going to be skewed. We now know smokers and not smokers. It's totally different.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Dr. Trish Leigh: And so like anytime we think about porn and masturbation, fantasy, anything that's hypersexual, that's why I'm trying to extend it to This idea of hypersexuality, because I work with people who have never watched porn or actually that's probably wrong. They haven't watched porn in 20 years, but they have these other behaviors that they consistently engage in.
So those hypersexual behaviors are leading them away from what they want.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, you used a great word there, self sexuality, which is kind of a really nice way of categorizing what most of this misbehavior is, right? Which is that, like, nobody's ever engaged in masturbation regularly, even [00:16:00] if it's sex. Healthy quote unquote and had others best interest in mind, right? these are self serving behaviors and that's I think why people get so ribbed when you start to say that's bad for you You shouldn't do
Dr. Trish Leigh: And it's secret. Like I, I usually call it secret self sexuality because you don't tell people you're doing it either. And there's very few behaviors that you're proud of that you do secretively. And, you know, we can, we can dissect pride. Not that I really want to, but the point is like, you know, that people know they don't really want to be doing it.
You know what I mean? Internally, can stop enough, you know,
Sathiya Sam: no exactly that's what I always I'm like whatever masturbation is providing for you You probably have a better healthier alternative that you could be choosing instead,
Dr. Trish Leigh: definitely, definitely.
Sathiya Sam: What happens when someone comes to you and they say, you know, Dr. Trish, I've actually, I've made tons of progress.
I'm not struggling with porn anymore. It's just this masturbation thing I need to figure out. Um, what would you say to somebody who's coming with that
Dr. Trish Leigh: Sure. I say [00:17:00] all the time. So there's always, you know, again, masturbation is a symptom of, uh, factors that are flying under the radar. So there. More subconscious or unconscious factors. And every behavior we have, every single one of us, it's serving us in some way. So masturbation serves to self soothe and self stimulate. And I will probably frustrate a couple of people, but I have likened it to sucking your thumb and it actually is a juvenile way to escape for a little while to self soothe and to self stimulate just like sucking your thumb is when you're six. But then if you were still sucking your thumb right now, that would feel off to you because you would recognize you were using a very immature behavior to make yourself feel better about your current situation.
That's the bottom line. It doesn't have to do with sex.[00:18:00]
So what I do, especially when people work with me in my neurofeedback coaching program, they fill out a detailed history and they fill out significant details of what's going on in their current life. I figure out what their conflicts are, their stressors, their goals. So in that, in that I do that in the QEG brain map.
So I also can see how their brain is performing. So I'm able to connect those dots, those
Sathiya Sam: can you clarify what a QEG
Dr. Trish Leigh: Sure,
Sathiya Sam: for our audience
Dr. Trish Leigh: QEG brain map. I think it's, it's my second favorite thing in the world. My favorite thing is neurofeedback, which is the type of coaching QEG brain map. It uses electroencephalogram. So it reads, I use a piece of technology that you can purchase at home.
It's actually very affordable. Then you get a sensor and the sensor is applied to all areas of your brain. So every area I can see how it's using electrical energy. And what that allows me to see is if your brain is [00:19:00] performing in the healthy, optimal brain pattern of calm focus. the levels away from that optimal brain pattern in every single area.
So the idea is the more areas you have that have even higher levels of dysfunction, your brain is going to want to be self soothed and self stimulated. And I've now called them two different types of brain patterns. The first one I call strained brain. And it is a brain that's using too much fast and too much slow electrical energy all at the same time.
So it's a wired and tired brain and a wired and tired brain. It's the opposite of the optimal brain pattern, calm focus, and you can see it in the electrical energy pattern. A wired and tired brain wants to be self soothed for the wired piece. self stimulated for the tired piece. It's easy to see why people go back.
And that is the brain pattern that comes out of the [00:20:00] 4D dopamine cycle of porn addiction. But if you keep doing that over and over and over and over, what happens is You're flooding your brain with dopamine and you will artificially drown out your brain and dopamine. And what that leads to is artificial calm.
And I've been calling that drained bringing drained brain is what leads to sexual arousal dysfunction and to erectile dysfunction.
Sathiya Sam: Very interesting. And the Q E E G allows, like, the Q is quantitative, I'm guessing. is. It allows you to measure the activity in these different regions of the brain.
Dr. Trish Leigh: It does. And then it visualizes it very easily in terms of color. So it's re and, and that's what I'm gearing up to create more content to let people know, like. I can see how much dysfunction in every area. You can see it too. Like people come on the, and then I do a one hour zoom with people. So they come on the zoom and you know, [00:21:00] one guy not too long ago, he's like, my brain's at, you know, my brain is F right now.
And I'm like, I'm like, you are right, there is quite a few areas that have, uh, you know, we can, we can close that healing gap, you know, so easy to see. But the reason that's my second favorite thing is because when people join me for neurofeedback coaching, the system that I use generates data. Within and across every session.
So I'm able to see their brain improving over time. A really cool that a really cool thing I saw this week, which is the first time that someone has told me this is that I can see when people have relapses, I can see a slip and a relapse, no sweat, and I do it all the time. I'll say to people, you see how you have a stress spike here, which is followed by a dopamine spike.
I would hypothesize this is a slip and there'll be like guilty as charged or like in relapse, you know, it'll be like, see this stress spike, see this alpha alpha is that artificial neutral, [00:22:00] see this alpha going up, up, up, up, and staying up over days. You know, I would say that's a relapse and they're like, yep.
So check out what happened the other day. One of my clients, I'm like, I see this spike, you know, and here's a big alpha spike. And he's like, I don't know. And cause I'm like, did you have a slip? And he's like, no, but you know what we identified? It was a triggering time, a time he normally would engage with porn.
And there's, there's physical and mental triggers around that. You know, for a lot of people, like it's a time when their family leaves, Or, you know, things like that.
Sathiya Sam: Right? Yep.
Dr. Trish Leigh: And it was an urge and it was a huge dopamine spike, which, I mean, we know this from the 4d dopamine cycle, but it's the first time somebody told me I did not act out, that was an urge, huge dopamine spike.
And he said he was feeling the urge for hours that day. Amazing.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. So you're getting really helpful data there. How often is, uh, you know, you, you see a [00:23:00] slip or you see, you know, relapse, which to clarify a slip would be a one off event. Relapse is a collection of events. Um, how often is it that you see a stressor or something prior that sort of catalyzes the whole
Dr. Trish Leigh: Nine out of 10 times more than that. I say 10 out of 10, you know, I see a stress spike or I see stress incrementally going up. And this goes back to the question about masturbation. Masturbation is the symptom, figuring out those pieces in a person's life. That's where the real work needs to happen.
So what I tell people when I'm working with them is we have to dig and figure it out because you know, how it goes, your patterns, you don't even totally know there that's why they're sub conscious. And for so many people to become so habitual, like there's people habitually want to masturbate on Monday morning to get enough dopamine to get through the week.
Sathiya Sam: Yes.
Dr. Trish Leigh: who need to masturbate as sleep aid and I think people become aware of that one Where every night they have the urge to [00:24:00] masturbate but it's because they're they can't sleep without it now. It's become a sleep aid
Sathiya Sam: Is there a typical distance from, like distance in time from when somebody has a stressful event to when they'll have the acting out?
Dr. Trish Leigh: Um, it's it's usually within a day or two and usually it's the building of stress over time But I will tell you what I also see too going back to that habitual piece is In the first month that I work with a person, I will see their brain cycling in that stress, wanting dopamine, like it's just still stuck in the cycle, even though the person is beginning to change their behaviors.
And so I'll tell people cause they get a little, you know, well, actually they usually feel better. So, but when they look at the data, I'm like, your brain's still cycling, but it's calming down. So what I look for is And this is, it's the same in the tech that a person can buy by themselves is the trend should have a downward trend.
And that downward trend [00:25:00] shows that your brain is gaining more calm focus and is less wired and tired. And when that happens, that's when they don't need external behaviors. So no matter what the external behavior is, it's designed. To give them dopamine quickly at higher levels than they can get from anything natural.
So I think also when I educate people on why you're doing that, like let's, and another piece of the pie is let's get you as much dopamine as possible upfront in a recovery. So that you, but again, that's dopamine replacement. So like, let's get some dopamine replacement going from healthy sources.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Dr. Trish Leigh: you can leave behind unhealthy sources at higher levels.
Then we kind of bring those dopamine levels down to healthier levels overall. And neurofeedback. One of the things that I am so excited about in the science is I have put together a proprietary protocol that [00:26:00] decreases alpha, which is the need for dopamine, while also giving the brain alpha, which will give it healthy dopamine internally.
Because what I see in the math. When it comes to dopamine is a person has a brain that's in a dopamine seeking mode, but has low ability to create that calm focus internally. So I try to get it going internally and decrease the need to go get it externally. Yeah.
Sathiya Sam: again,
I think we should clarify dopamine is actually really good for you, you know, it's just that porn and so many of the compulsive behaviors, even social media, a lot of the tech developments, they've just hijacked our dopaminergic circuits and they're wreaking havoc on our bodies.
So dopamine is actually really good. Cause it, it helps us get, stay motivated and pursue rewards, all that kind of stuff. So that is really profound. What you just said.
Dr. Trish Leigh: And it's dependency. That's why I always try to say dopamine dependency. So people understand like, you know, when we, when our brains and bodies are working in a [00:27:00] very healthy, balanced way. Then, you know, dopamine and dopamine actually is really healthy in what they call the happiness trifecta. It's balanced with serotonin, oxytocin, the systems flowing in a really balanced way.
But when you have a dopamine dependency, you're looking for two high levels of dopamine too frequently.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. The other thing that, um, we kind of glossed over this, but you said a stressor that could eventually lead to a slip or a relapse could happen one to two days in advance or prior rather. Um, that's actually pretty significant because I feel like a lot, I'm sure you have this with your clients too, like when they come to you and they have a slip and you say, okay, what happened right away, they're going to talk about what happened that day.
Right. Like, or, or like even in the moments leading up to it. Um, so even just expanding that self awareness to look one day, two days, three days, like you said, it can accumulate maybe over a week or multiple weeks, that's like, that's a real skill that is super valuable to, you know, regulate your nervous system, understand yourself better [00:28:00] and obviously make better decisions.
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. And you know, honestly, I think that's a really cool piece of my work is that with this data, I can go, okay, you can see you have this, it's called high beta, the stress, uh, speed in your brain. You can see you have this high beta spike on Monday. This just happened with a client. You can see it on Monday.
He's like, Monday was just a regular day. And I'm like, tell me what a regular day is. Monday was a 10 hour day. So like, you know, and that's what I'm trying to say to him. Like, and so I figure out what people have going on. Brains aren't designed to go to hardcore 10 hours a day. They need bricks. Like, so for most people, my point with this.
pieces that first of all, I can see it. I have clients take notes so I can match up their behavior. They take notes on in real time so that then when we meet, I can piece it all together. But a lot of times it's like, it's not like, you know, your house didn't burn down stressor. It's like you had a 10 hour day and no lunch break stressor.
That is a stress around the [00:29:00] nervous system. If you do that over and over and over and over. In today's society, we've let our, our balance just get completely outta whack. We just drive ourselves the ground, we crash with exhaustion, and we get up and do it again.
Sathiya Sam: yeah. And I'm, I'm definitely guilty of that. Um, uh, and I would say like the last year or two, I've been like trying to recover from this. And I think the way I would phrase it is I was so numb to my body. You know, like just so unaware and I think we've learned to do that I don't know if it's because we're just trying to cope or we're overstressed or you know There's lots of different arguments there, but it's pretty clear now like Again, like there's so many studies.
There's so many different ways to slice it but porn Affects the body and you referenced ed earlier. I think we should get into that a little
Dr. Trish Leigh: Sure. Yeah.
Sathiya Sam: And another thing I want to ask you about we won't we won't go there right away But I do want to ask you about testosterone because I think that's a an emerging field and I think it'd be Super fascinating to talk about it.
Tell me a little bit about what you're discovering about the link between porn and ed.
Dr. Trish Leigh: [00:30:00] Sure. And, and when we discuss those two things, I would encourage your listeners just to think logically about this stuff. 'cause this is what I say to people, like, I know I'm using advanced concepts. I know I have data. But I'll say to my clients all the time, just think about this logically, because if you do, just makes logical sense.
So when it comes to ED, many of the people I work with, they've gone to their doctors. They've gone to urologist. They've had their body or their physiology checked out and their physiology is all in good shape.
Sathiya Sam: yeah
Dr. Trish Leigh: what I want people to know is that we know for the most part, it's arousal dysfunction in their brain.
What arousal dysfunction means is. It goes back to the wired and tired brain pattern and strained brain and drained brain. It's something called autonomic nervous system dysfunction. So ANS dysfunction is, it comes mostly out of sympathetic dominance. Go, go, go. Fighter flight, [00:31:00] mini fighter flight all the time.
Versus parasympathetic is rest and digest. So you have fight, fight or flight, sympathetic, parasympathetic, rest and digest. So what happens in ED is that because of the porn cycle, they're in strained brain, which basically means they are in sympathetic dominance, wired and tired all the time. And if you're wired and tired, you're on the complete opposite ends of healthy arousal, which is calm focus.
It's the optimal, it's balance of parasympathetic and sympathetic. So we know for healthy erections and orgasm, you need to have the perfect balance of sympathetic and parasympathetic. You have to be slightly aroused, not super hyper aroused all the time. You have to be slightly aroused, which means your baseline has to go up a little to feel sexually aroused.
So the problem isn't even that. [00:32:00] It's baseline. Baseline is completely skewed from where it should be. Actually, I have a new Ed digital program, which I call the Three Steps to Heal Ed at home. You don't have to work with me. It's a digital program you can walk through. Where I try to teach people, it's all based on science.
There's activities in every lesson. Um, I talked to a gentleman in a consult. I do consults still. Um, I talked to a gentleman in a consult. He's like, I did that one activity and my baseline arousal is at a 13. Baseline arousal should be at a five, five out of 10. You're chill, you're calm and focused. You're just chill.
You can get aroused. You can also relax more if it's time to watch TV. Baseline arousal should be 5 out of 10. And now it's time to be sexually aroused. You get up to 8 or 9. What porn does is it takes the brain to 15. So now time to have sex with your partner. You should be at a five, but you're [00:33:00] not, you're wired and tired. And so then now when it comes time to be aroused, you're used to going up to 15 to be able to have an erection. And that's why I joke that your partner on a good day, if she's running her own business, raising five kids and you know, your partner on a good day, Is a seven or an eight. And if she knows you're struggling with porn, she's a solid four.
Sathiya Sam: Right, yeah, so true. Yeah, that that scale just gets completely skewed doesn't
Dr. Trish Leigh: It does. So the problem in the ED is baseline arousal in your brain. That's what needs be healed. Now, cool thing is that again, my, my, my work's all measurable. So when I work with people, I can see their alpha. On a chart that I look at, alpha is supposed to be the middle of five lines. On the chart for people with ED, alpha is the highest of the five lines.
Sathiya Sam: Okay that's the like wire tired brain
Dr. Trish Leigh: the drain brain, honestly. So, and I already you, like, by the time [00:34:00] someone really struggles with sexual arousal dysfunction, they've hit the dopamine button so many times that their brain is stuck in artificial neutral and then it just can't go. But you can have ED out of strained brain or out of just I call drain brain just your brain is stuck in neutral.
It's it's hit the, just like the, the, the rat in the maze. It's hit that lever for the dopamine. So many times if you've ever seen any of those studies, not with dopamine, but you know, the shows the rat, like can't even move. He's like, he's so numbed out that rat can't even, he's just. Lays there, you know, so that's, that's drain brain.
You're just literally drained. Like now the scale is just not even, cause you're not even on the scale. You can't move. So it's, you know, so this is a major problem for people, but what I was going to say is when alpha is the highest line, I can see it come down, down, down. And people get discouraged because they've been struggling for so long. And then they start to work with me and they [00:35:00] want it to work in a heartbeat.
And, you know, it's three weeks later. I'm like, listen, dude, you've had this for seven years. We've been working together for three weeks. Give a girl a break, but I can see your brain is coming down. And then I just talked to my program is four months long for most people. I can get them there in four months.
I talked to another one of my clients the other day, and he's. He's like, I'm feeling the difference, but it's his third It's his third month. And I'm, and he's like, I'm almost done. People can stay in the program as long as they want. Of course, they don't want to have pay for it any longer than they need to.
But I'm like, you're, getting there, my friend. He's like, I feel it. I feel it. I'm, you know, so it's good
Sathiya Sam: That's really cool.
riverside_dr: measure it too.
Sathiya Sam: that's really cool. Yeah, our program's four months as well. We use different modalities, but, uh, but the same kind of premise and it is cool, uh, when people can see that progress. So we, we've talked about this a little bit and this is a good time, I think, to maybe, um, address it. The importance of tracking trends.
Um, as opposed to, uh, I [00:36:00] think, I think especially like we've had clients who, you know, they start with us, they make a lot of progress. Maybe they got some momentum. It's been six weeks, eight weeks. They're feeling really good. And then they have a slip and like their whole world just comes crashing down. Um, cause you know, guys in particular, I think we can get really hyper focused on, you know, specific moments.
And it's such a gift to be able to zoom out and look at the trends. Do you have any advice for guys who maybe find they're they're getting caught up and being perfectionist about it? And like you said they want the quick fix which is obviously, you know, even just that's porn conditioning right there.
That's looking for An immediate reward. How do you guide people to just be patient and track trends?
Dr. Trish Leigh: so tricky and, and my heart goes out to them because if you're trying to, you know, remedy anything that's chronic, you always want it to come online faster than it does, generally speaking. But this is what I would encourage people to do is first of all, get a journal if you don't have one, because in your journal, I want you to get completely honest with yourself.[00:37:00]
You cannot. You know, if you want, it goes back to what I already said. Like you can't kid yourself on what's going on. So you have to increase self awareness at the beginning of this journey. Self awareness is very low. So a huge goal is increasing self awareness across your recovery journey until you get to the point where you realize.
You will have to become self aware all the time in real time. And then you have to gain emotional intelligence and skills to be able to make new choices. That is the journey. So like when it goes back to masturbation, masturbation is not about masturbation. Slips aren't about slips. It's about being able to look yourself in the eyes and say, okay, like figure out what that slip is.
You know, and I always say there's no such thing as win or lose. It's win or learn. If you learn from your slips, if you learn, they become gold and clients tell me all the time when I see the slips, this other client, he said, he goes, honestly, I'm glad this happened [00:38:00] because it allowed me to see, and we broke it down, but he's like, it allowed me to see what I was still doing and what I need to do differently.
So, and going back to that client who's in the third month. You know, I'm like, dude, you have to like engage in this conversation with me because you are not doing what you need to do, you know, I will lovingly call people out, I'm like, you're doing this, you're doing that, you're doing this, like, these are, you know, leading you away from your goal.
So we need to put another strategy in place that leads you towards your goal. And sometimes people tell me, they're like, I'm not there yet. And I'm like, I gotcha. But next month we're going to be revisiting these ideas. And it's always about like, when it comes to ED, it's always about removing desensitization of the reward center in the brain.
That is what causes drain brain is the dopamine receptors in the brain have literally become [00:39:00] desensitized. They can't even feel sensitivity of stimulation anymore. That's why you need level 15. They've, it's like tread on a tire. If you drive your car around town and you're always doing donuts, like your tread's going to be gone and you need new, you need new tires.
So the idea is no desensitization. Become really real with yourself on how you're desensitizing, whether it be on YouTube with seemingly harmless content, whether it be on social media, um, whether it be in the world, you know, people tell me all the time, it's beach season. I can't stay away from the beach.
Like you can't stay away from the beach for one summer. So you can accomplish your goals. And I'm I'm like, it's one It'll be different next year. Like, you know, if you move through recovery, it really is different. Yeah. You can go to the Bodies don't have the dopamine hit like they used to.
So, uh, you know, it's like being able to do things that you, you need to do and having the courage to do [00:40:00] that. And then the opposite side, no more desensitizing. The opposite side is resensitizing. Resensitizing. And this is something like going back to what we were talking about with masturbation, when a person has a partner, what I want them to do is practice healthy arousal, spend time with your partner, spend 20, 30 minutes building arousal.
And then this is what my clients say. I don't know what you mean. And I'm like, okay, let's start at the beginning. You know how important it takes 10 seconds for everybody to be like in real life. There needs to be your brain needs to practice. Becoming aroused with your partner over time, it's going to need practice.
You know what they say, practice makes perfect. So when you're practicing, you're engaging the muscle of the brain and resensitizing back towards a healthy human partner. And then we might as well cross the bridge of what about Viagra or Cialis? Because when it comes [00:41:00] to the, you know, the little pills, again, I'm a realist.
You know, I tell people like, if you have a new partner and you don't want to tell them, like You know, I get it. Cause a lot of times men's brains are coming online. They haven't had a partner in a long time. They meet someone, they're super excited, but I explained to them, you cannot count on it as a crutch because then your brain never gets to practice.
So if you are going to use a pharmaceutical, recognize. First of all, we know from porn induced erectile dysfunction that because of the desensitization, it doesn't work for many people because there has be the mechanism of arousal there for it to
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, true.
Dr. Trish Leigh: So a lot of times it doesn't even work for people, but like, you know, I'll tell them sometimes use it so that you can feel more comfortable and confident, but then other times take it slower and your new partner's going to think they struck gold.
Well,
Sathiya Sam: huge difference. And I, I, I'm thinking about your metaphor of like spinning your tires. It almost [00:42:00] sounds like using a Viagra or Cialis. It's kind of like, Just spinning the tires way, way faster. Right. And maybe, maybe it will actually catch even though you have no tread, but obviously the better option, like you said, is to replace it
Dr. Trish Leigh: the thing is, then you'll need it for the next 40 years because, you know, lot of my clients are 20, they're in their twenties, like it's induced erectile dysfunction in twenties and early thirties. And we know that going to hit a critical mass. Sometime soon where, you know, nobody talks about it right now, but it is going on at epidemic levels with young men.
So that's why I want to know, like, that is just a Band Aid, but you do not want to have to use a Band Aid for the rest of your life. And I always call neurofeedback stitches. I always have since I started. You know, what neurofeedback does when, just to let you know, what neurofeedback does is using technology, it gives your brain feedback on how it's performing to basically close the gap of where it is, strain brain or drain brain, brain back to the healthy pattern.
And people say to me, I [00:43:00] don't understand how that could possibly work because all you have to do is use the app and watch videos or listen to audio and that video audio feedback. It plays loud and bright when your brain is in the zone. It plays dim and low when your brain is out of the zone, and your brain will work for the reward.
But people tell me all the time, I have no clue how that could possibly work. So I liken it to bicep curls. The way my system works is like, if you want to get bigger biceps, you need 10 pound weights. You got to start repping the 10 pound weights. But you don't have to look at your bicep and go, come on, bicep, get big.
You don't have to give it, you don't have to talk to it. You don't have to give it a whole bunch of, all you have to do, rep as many 10 pound bicep curls. And then when gets easy, you swap out the 10s for 20s. Keep reppin When the 20s get easy, you swap out the 20s for 30s. Keep reppin 30s for 40s. That's what my system does.
It uses mathematical equations so that when it gets easier, [00:44:00] it automatically thresholds and it makes it more difficult for you. So when these trends are coming down, it's getting more difficult too. And literally, re strengthening and re sensitizing the brain. And that's why people can have such success in such a short amount of time.
Sathiya Sam: that's really cool. My, my latest obsession is brain FM. Have you heard of brain FM? familiar with
Dr. Trish Leigh: What is it?
Sathiya Sam: the app? So, I mean, I'm sure you've heard of like binaural beats, of things. They, they have patented technology. My understanding is that binaural beats typically are affecting the waves in the limbic system.
And I guess their technology through the music they're creating, and it's specifically the modulations. They're actually able to create waves or impact the waves, uh, at the PFC, the prefrontal cortex. Um, and so they'll have different modes where it's like, do you want to relax? Do you want to focus? Are trying to get deep sleep?
Um, I track my sleep. I've been doing that pretty regularly. Um, I started playing their deep sleep setting, um, you know, while I sleep and my deep sleep has increased like 25 percent on [00:45:00] average. So there's, there's, there's a lot of merit to what you're talking about. It doesn't have to be brain FM, but like the,
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah, it's cool. And I can, I can tell you the difference and I've used technology like that before,
Sathiya Sam: Oh,
Dr. Trish Leigh: what like what binaural beats do or anything like that, uh, some of the other texts that are out there, um, what they will do is put frequencies in. So like in that case for deep sleep, it's putting in one to three Hertz.
It's called Delta. So it's, and then your brain will attune to the frequency that is being put into it. And so like, basically you're trying to like, Jimmy your brain into that mode, which totally has merits.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0022: Yeah.
Dr. Trish Leigh: do is it doesn't put anything in. So it's actually more all natural and more holistic because uses operant conditioning.
Which is the amount of reward that your brain gets. It's like learning to play a piano is an easy, another easy way to think about it. Like every time you hit the wrong key, your [00:46:00] brain goes, Oh, I hit the wrong key. I have to hit this key, but it does it at the automatic level, but it doesn't put the frequency in.
It's basically giving you the error key. If you're making too much of a speed, and then it a pretty key if you hit the right speed. And so it teaches, it's a teaching and learning modality. It teaches your brain. Make more of this, don't make as much of this. So like for people with ED, I'm teaching it, don't make as much alpha, make more calm focus and then, and decrease your stress too, because I'm always inhibiting stress.
And so basically in the end, I've permanently helped people to, you know, work out their brain so that it, it operates differently.
Sathiya Sam: Very cool. Yeah. That I haven't heard that distinction before. that that's really insightful. While we're here, let's talk a little bit about premature ejaculation and delayed ejaculation. Um, two very common symptoms, obviously a high correlation with sense, uh, [00:47:00] desensitization, like we were talking about earlier and sensitization as well, which we haven't really touched on yet.
Um, what's going on in the brain when somebody is experiencing, um, either premature or delayed ejaculation?
Dr. Trish Leigh: Sure. So just so your listeners know in that new program that I created, the ED program, there is a lesson on both of these things. So if you're struggling, the whole program builds up to basically PEDE and ED. So, okay, long story short, DE and ED are related. So delayed ejaculation is related ED. PE is the opposite.
Premature ejaculation is the opposite. And it goes back to sympathetic and parasympathetic. So sympathetic is basically you're too hyper aroused. Okay. So if your baseline arousal is too hyper aroused, you need lots and lots of stimulation to get where you're used to going. When that's the case, there's DE and ED. So when [00:48:00] there's PE, it's the opposite. Your baseline arousal level is very low. So then when it's time to get aroused, you just, you're aroused right away.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0022: Right.
Dr. Trish Leigh: So it actually is a different brain pattern where usually it, it depends. It's a little different. But hopefully you get the idea, like that baseline arousal is really low.
And the mechanisms that can, can create that are very similar. It just depends, but it is like, it's not absolutely one brain pattern, like the other two are.
Sathiya Sam: Interesting. Okay, so when you have delayed ejaculation or erectile dysfunction, uh, we talked about this. This is primarily because of desensitization in the brain. There's a brain pattern associated with it, but you're saying premature ejaculation is maybe not as cut and dry. Are there any Specific factors
riverside_dr: Well, I'll tell you a lot of times people have depression. That go along with it because it's more of like, it's more of like the [00:49:00] baseline arousal is low. So, when there is a stimulus, it puts them over the edge quickly, opposed to like, it's a hypo aroused brain. And a hypo aroused brain will also feel depression or low motivation.
So that's definitely something that I see correlated where in in D. E. and E. D. it's more of a stressed out exhausted person opposed to like a lower energy person and and again, if you just think about it logically, like, if you're really. know, jacked up, then it's difficult to get stimulated if you're stressed out or you're exhausted.
But if you're, if you kind of have this lower hypo arousal baseline, then something excites you, you just go right over the edge.
Sathiya Sam: yeah, yeah, really interesting. Um, it's also probably worth noting that, you know, uh, porn videos also kind of give the impression that typical sex just goes forever and you [00:50:00] do seven different positions and whatever. And we've definitely had some people who come to us and they, they're like, you know, I have premature ejaculation and I don't know what to do about it.
I'm so embarrassed. And then you kind of get into the weeds a little bit and you hear what their experiences and you're like, actually, that's just normal, healthy human sex, you know,
riverside_dr: I have this
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0022: nothing wrong
Dr. Trish Leigh: all the time with people because people tell me one concern when people are coming out of E. D. is that they think they have an hedonia. They think they have lack of feeling pleasure, or they feel like they now are, and this might lead into our testosterone conversation.
If you still want to go there, they feel like they, they don't feel, uh. They can't feel sexual anymore. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, we got to back you up because. You're used to feeling hypersexual, so what you've are like thinking about sex all the time and seeing any person who walks by as a sexual object like that's hypersexuality wanting to have sex all the [00:51:00] time.
So, like, you know, healthy sexuality is when you're with your partner. You can build arousal and have a nice sexual experience. You're not walking or always thinking about sex. Very different experience for people. So they do get concerned until they realize, like, this whole thing's a framework shift. This is an entire lifestyle framework shift.
This isn't just, I'm gonna heal ED. It is, I'm going to change and my whole existence becomes different, better. And, you know, when people, when that shifts for people, they are blown away. They have no idea what I'm talking about until they experience it. But once they experience it and you know, it kind of goes to screen time in general also, because people tell me all the time, I only have urges when I'm bored.
And I'm like, you're not bored. You're just lacking overstimulation. Yeah. Like if you can't hang out 22 minutes and be on three screens and watch [00:52:00] porn, like it's just lack of, it's just lack of overstimulation. You have no clue what boredom is. You haven't even been near boredom. Like just lack of overstimulation.
So when you think about these things logically, you're like, Oh, it just makes so much sense. So you're totally right too. Cause I'll break that down with people also.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0022: Yeah.
riverside_dr: you know, and, but some of the, a lot of the people I worked with, with PE, it's more like with porn, not necessarily with a partner.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0022: Yeah.
Dr. Trish Leigh: it's like, know, they have these lower level hypo arousal.
They get aroused immediately. it's because their brain, and you know, those, most of the people who I work with, it's, and I will tell you, it's like one for every thousand, like it's much less than D, and E, D.
Sathiya Sam: definitely. Yeah, it is interesting though. Like porn really does, um, rewire just your whole concept of what is, what's normal, what's true, what's healthy, you know, and especially when the age of early exposure or sorry, the age of first exposure is [00:53:00] going down. Um, and you know, that dependency is increasing.
Um, it's a huge problem. Let's talk about,
Dr. Trish Leigh: It's terrifying.
Sathiya Sam: talk about testosterone. Yeah, I think
Dr. Trish Leigh: so when it comes to testosterone again, like your brain runs your mind and your body, your brain is in charge of the cascading of all neurotransmitters and hormones. So when you are stuck in these changes in arousal, namely strained brain, Like there is such strain on the system that nothing is flowing like it should.
And
Sathiya Sam: Hmm.
Dr. Trish Leigh: autonomic nervous system dysfunction changes the way all of your whole brain and body and your cells operate. We know that. There are thousands and thousands of studies that show autonomic nervous system dysfunction changes cellular function. Each and every cell, the mitochondria in each and every cell. What the connection that hasn't been made is to porn [00:54:00] and ed and testosterone. But there are studies that show, like, basically if you're constantly hitting the system it for in masturbation, there's studies in masturbation that shows excessive masturbation will deplete testosterone. And that, that then if you, and actually there's studies that show that people who, that younger men who porn versus non porn and masturbation versus non masturbation, that there's completely different levels because so many men now are into testosterone replacement.
So my contention is like, again, it goes back to, if we look at these variables of porn and masturbation, testosterone is taking a hit because of those behaviors, because of. The tension, the friction in the nervous system due to autonomic nervous system dysfunction.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. And, um, and I think to clarify, we already touched on it, but I'll make sure we're clear with the autonomic nervous system is operating healthily. [00:55:00] You actually have a good balance between the two branches, right? The parasympathetic and sympathetic. I still remember my third year neuro prof was like, like the gas and the brakes, right?
Gas and the brakes. And, um, you're going to have periods of time where one is more dominant than the other, but in general they should balance each other out.
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. And in brain, in the brain map that I do, like I call it the green zone when the QEG brain map, when the whole thing's green, it basically means that, and I use analogies like that, it means that the brain is acting like an automatic transmission that can. Shift the gears seamlessly by itself throughout the day based on circadian rhythms.
So like, you know, you can feel calm when it's time to chat and have a cup of coffee. You can get focused when it's time to work. If something massively stressful happens, you can respond, but then you can bring your system back down. You can get in bed, you can hang out, you can, it takes 20 minutes to fall asleep, and then you can sleep like a baby.
But when you are in autonomic nervous system dysfunction, you're hitting the gas in the brake. It's like a manual transmission that is [00:56:00] stuck in gears. The red on a brain map where everyone goes, my brain is effed. It comes back as red when your brain is stuck in a gear. So what comes back is people are stuck in stress gear.
They're stuck in dopamine searching, seeking gear. They're stuck in exhausted gear. Um,
Sathiya Sam: that balance or that homeostasis is kind of thrown off. So, with, with testosterone, my understanding, the research that shows, you know, um, masturbation, masturbating excessively, which I think, um, is there, have they quantified that? Is it like daily or?
Dr. Trish Leigh: it was, it was different in different studies last time I look, but it was even at two times a week. Like you said, you know,
Sathiya Sam: got twice a week. Oh, interesting. Okay. Um, and the, the effect it has on testosterone is partially because of the increase in prolactin, if I'm understanding it correctly, does that sound right to you and prolactin is inhibitory towards testosterone?
Dr. Trish Leigh: cortisol too. Like the cortisol dopamine, um, [00:57:00] mechanisms are at play too, because when your brain is a primary thing that happens is in fight or flight, you pump cortisol into the system. And it shuts down all fight or flight. Basically what happens is all your resources are not flowing because. Your brain tells you, you have to reduce everything so that you can stay alive.
And when you do that, everything doesn't pump, except for the things that are designed to help you stay alive.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Right. It's pure survival mode.
Dr. Trish Leigh: And then the key is getting into parasympathetic enough so that you are allowing that balance to go back and forth. So everything flows.
Sathiya Sam: So do you think I, cause I'm guessing maybe this isn't something that's tracked necessarily, but I have to imagine when people are going through your program and I've, I've always assumed this about people going through our program as well, when they are quitting pornography and they're regaining this balance in their life and control over their body nervous system, all this stuff.
Um, I have to imagine like hormone [00:58:00] profiles and other things as well are just naturally balancing out way they should be. Like you said, there's flow again, right? There's a,
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. And a cool thing that's happened to me twice now, but actually I've only seen it once, but two people have told me and I should ask people. Um, and actually it's a gentleman who he was on my podcast, one of my clients who is a bodybuilder. So he ended up having a whole, uh, blood panel and all that done prior to, just prior to starting my program, then he did it like 90 days later and everything changed.
Like even all female, quote unquote, female hormones, everything balanced out. And he was like blown away because, you know, he's working so hard to be a bodybuilder who's trying to, you know, capitalize on, he is trying to get the body. so his testosterone went up, I forget what else, but everything balanced out.
And in that podcast, that was years ago. And that podcast, we kind of broke down what came online and then another person who. Actually, a [00:59:00] few, a few other people, because people are into biohacking these days, you know, they're measuring it themselves, but I should get some of that data, because it's interesting, where, like, they have measured how things are more balanced afterwards.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, it's interesting. It is interesting and I think it's lacking, you know, especially now because like everybody is so interested with testosterone Trt is obviously at an all time high and so I think it you know I'm i'm excited to see some more research come out that shows when you're viewing pornography compulsively Here's how it affects your testosterone because you and I both know anecdotally that it does Um, could have some data
Dr. Trish Leigh: And what I try to do is, it's funny, because I probably shouldn't tell everybody who's listening, but because I'm about to, I'm about to do it is like, you know, what's interesting is that people care about their testosterone, which don't get me wrong. We should care about what our panels say, but it's really about, like, how you feel and how you're performing that that's why we should want to see.
And I think it actually is more mental that, you know, men want to know that they [01:00:00] have high levels of testosterone. And then again, it goes back to, they don't want to have to look under the cover and go, Oh, my behaviors are depleting my testosterone, but it's about like, you know, if, when your system, and what I was going to say is I try to take people from caring about their testosterone to caring about their brain performance and how their body performs so that they get really engaged in the process of looking at it.
Like, like we said earlier, just more comprehensively, it's not about replacing testosterone. It's about. Being true to yourself and looking at all the factors of what you have going on. And, you know, some people don't work out at all. If you work out frequently, you're going to balance your hormones. We've known this for a long time.
A lot of eat so poorly. So those are a lot of the factors where the more, the more you have your system running, even keeled in balance, the easier it is to stay there. So people are dopamine spiking with food. Food either excessively stressed out. So like that one client I have, I'm [01:01:00] like, you need a new job. And, and he's like, I know I do. And because it is just crushing his soul. So like, you can go get testosterone placement all you want, except for the core factor is the 10 hours you're spending each day. So, and so what I do is just help them see that. But at the same time, I go, you don't have to quit right now, because that's big stuff.
But what you do have to do is start making a plan and cutting out time each day to explore other job opportunities. For a lot of people I work with, they need to improve their credentials. And you don't have to like go get another college degree or anything, but you can go take one simple training on a Saturday and now, you know, you've just leveled yourself up towards the thing you're trying to create.
And so I, I help people think out of the box on those things because once they know they're moving towards their goal, they feel so much better and there's less need to go to porn. It's, it's about about, you know, creating the balance and everything.
Sathiya Sam: No, I love that. You [01:02:00] said that cause I think this is one thing that gets lost in the conversations around data and metrics. Um, is actually how important it is when we're really healthy and optimal. There's an intuition that develops with our brain and our bodies, right. And we, we start to know like when we're dysregulated.
We start to know when something feels off within us, and you don't need a tracker to tell you, you know, you just kind of start to figure those things out. So I was actually thinking about this earlier when you're explaining some of your system, and this is a good time to ask now, how do you make sure that your clients don't get too obsessed with the metrics to the point that it's actually, Becoming more harmful than it is
Dr. Trish Leigh: Oh, it is a big challenge. I will tell you. Um,
Sathiya Sam: I would be that guy. I would
Dr. Trish Leigh: yeah. And you know, many times it's like, I, I have a conversation with people. For most people, they can, well, I'll tell you what I do. And then for most people, they can engage in my process. And then some people I have to say this, this constancy with the data is making things worse for you because it keeps you in [01:03:00] high beta.
High beta is just analyzing. But for most people, what I do is. There's two different sets of data. One is a little, it's quantitative, but it feels more qualitative. And so basically I go back and forth and share the different types of data. So they really only get like hardcore data every six weeks. And then, then there are the people who go, can't we do this more often?
No, we can't. I've been doing this long time. not good, but they do get charts and graphs every time they do a session. So it will show them. Yeah. If they're higher in the zone or lower in the zone within and across. And I try to teach people to, to start correlating that to their life. And so I try to get them focused.
And I have an example from a woman who I've worked with for a long time. She is a, um, a chief of a hospital. I don't know her term, but she runs a hospital and worked there for a real long time. And she would get so obsessed about the data and it would ebb and flow. And it really was a product of her stress. [01:04:00] So I'm like, this is like yoga. This is a practice. So you're not analyzing how good you're doing your yoga poses and yoga. Or if you're running a marathon, you not check your time. And if you check your time in a marathon, your time goes down. So it's a similar type of concept. So I bring them back to engaging in the experience and the, and the practice of it, and then measuring the outcomes in their life, like I just told you, like testosterone versus I feel strong and healthy, you know,
Sathiya Sam: Yep. Yep. So
Dr. Trish Leigh: I can usually get people and then using the data, I can show them the more you stress out about this, the worse your session is.
It's easy to
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
riverside_dr: They can feel it
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0022: so true. Yeah. I mean, I got really into HRV. I don't know if you've ever paid attention to heart rate variability. Got really into it last year. And then I realized my mood in the morning was being dictated by how, like, what my HRV score, you know, it was just crazy. And it was
riverside_dr: definitely. I got rid of my, I got rid of my Apple watch like three years ago. I just gave it to my [01:05:00] son because I'm like, this thing is ruining my life right now. All I care about is how many steps I've got. What my heart rate is at any given time.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. So I canceled it all too. But the interesting thing for me is I feel like I've grown, because just recently I started working with a functional medicine practitioner. I have a personal trainer. I'm kind of like, you know, putting my feet back And, um, I did start, like I said, I was tracking my sleep.
I'm using a whoop band. Um, but it's just different this time. I don't know, like it, it's not having that same impact. So I feel like I've matured a bit. I have a bit
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. And you have to make sure you have practices. Like, you know, I'm very pragmatic. I encourage people to have practices around all of this. Yeah. That keep them from getting overboard. And then I call them fault lines, like recognize when you're moving towards getting overboard, because even before I got rid of my permanently, um, I would take it off knowing, like, this thing feels like it's controlling me and I wouldn't wear it for a week. I know it's interesting we have a sleep number bed and like I won't go over by my husband in the morning [01:06:00] because it'll ruin my score. I'm like, I'm
Sathiya Sam: I get it.
Dr. Trish Leigh: I'm like not going by him is ruining my life but I want to get a 92 on my sleep score like
Sathiya Sam: Oh
riverside_dr: can go over by him for a minute and get an 87.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, no, seriously, seriously. I, um, yeah, so for me, I actually, um, I do this with my phone in general, like, I don't, I can't check any apps until 12 o'clock, until noon. Just so that I don't have any like dopamine spikes in the morning, whether it's HRV or messages or whatever. And occasionally I have to, I have to bypass that for whatever reason, but it generally, it's a really good principle for me.
It's a good
Dr. Trish Leigh: yeah, I love it. I haven't even, I haven't checked my email yet. Like, you know, I, I've created that my lifestyle. Um, and it really will serve you like, you know, I, I, I have practices, you know, going back to being very pragmatic. I have, you know, basic practices that I do at all different points. Across the day.
Um, actually it was solidified when I read Ryan [01:07:00] holidays book, uh, discipline is destiny. I don't know if you've read that book, but I like him as an author. He's great, but you know, he basically says, or this is one of my takeaways at least, is that like in the, in the discipline actually becomes some of the flexibility.
Because you, you know, you have a disciplined lifestyle, which actually allows you to accomplish everything you want to, but not feel enslaved by it. Like, I don't feel enslaved by the practices. I feel freed by them because I always have time to make breakfast. I always have time to make dinner. Like, you know, I know what I'm doing, what I'm supposed to be doing.
And so I'm never worried about what I should be doing.
Sathiya Sam: That's fantastic. Yeah, it's really, really good. So while we're talking about practices, let's talk about social media. Cause I, I'm of the opinion that social media is sort of the gateway drug to all the stuff that you and I discuss porn addiction, compulsive masturbation, infidelities and affairs and fantasies and all that stuff.
Let's talk a little bit from a neurological perspective why this is the case. Why is social media [01:08:00] dovetailing into these more compulsive behaviors?
Dr. Trish Leigh: It's the same reason with porn, except for at lower levels. So, uh, Basically all screens are supernormal stimulus and supernormal stimuli exist on a continuum with porn, my contention, but I'd love to have this completely measured is at the very highest of the supernormal stimuli. Then just a notch down is sexual media.
And obviously the more sexualized, the higher it's going to be within that sexual media. I also think a huge danger is people make the mistake of thinking it's not dangerous. They convince themselves and that's why I like in a porn addiction to the hijacker in their brain because it's so interesting and I try to be loving when I call people out like I run a meeting in our 90 day program, I run a meeting each month and a gentleman came on the meeting.
Uh, it was last Wednesday. And everything he said were hijacker comments. And I'm like, friend, I have to [01:09:00] lovingly call you out right now. All of this is just the hijacker within you. And I forget what the topic was, but it might've been on masturbation. Like, isn't it okay?
Sathiya Sam: Jack. Hijackers in like self sabotage or it's
Dr. Trish Leigh: like literally the addiction talking.
So if you've, so I characterize the hijack. I characterize like the addiction piece. But. It's like the two, you know, people in your head, the, the one who goes, you know, I'm never watching porn again, cause I know it's not good for me. But then in a weak moment, it goes. It's not that big of a deal. So, especially when it comes to social media, that hijacker, that voice, the one that's not serving you, it's ego, really.
Like, instead of true, authentic self, it's ego. That voice goes, it's just social media. Like, how could it ever be that bad for me? And everybody doesn't. And why would they allow us? Why would the government allow us to do it if it wasn't? Bad for us, you know, if it wasn't good for us. So all that rationalization leads people into social media.
And like, you know, if they tell [01:10:00] their partner, what are you doing? Oh, I'm on Instagram. Like it feels, or I'm on Twitter or X, you know, like it feels harmless. So instead of the, what I always encourage people to think, why, why are you there? Are you connecting with your grandma? Nope. Like if you're on Facebook connecting with your grandma, great.
But if you're, um, you know, another one not connecting with people, like, I think the merit of social media is the connection that it allows us to have, you know, we're able to, we're able to stay connected to people across the world. Like, that's a beautiful thing, but like, it's the why you really got to be honest with. Why are you there? And then, you know, that's the, it's a slippery slope. And like I already said, if you're at the beginning of this journey or caught up in it, it is self awareness is very low. as self awareness increases, then you're like, ah, I see it. People tell me all the time. They're like, I literally went there to.
Look at my motorcycle club. And [01:11:00] someone told me this one, one time, then, then there was a picture with a woman in it. There hasn't been before, but then because I saw the picture of the woman, I went over and I looked at some other woman. And then like, it's the slippery slope that, and it goes back to the 4d dopamine cycle, which was my point about seeing that urge in that person's brain.
Dopamine was so high. It was like higher than I thought it would be for an urge. Where we know from science, you know, they, I call it the dopamine drip. The minute you feel an urge, you have three seconds to pivot three seconds. That's it. So if you don't pivot in three seconds and you make the choice to stay in social media and move more towards sexual media, you'll be on the slippery slope.
Towards porn or close to it.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, yeah. It's a really good point. And I think like the one thing people always talk about is yeah, the triggering content, we kind of know that we know an Instagram or tick talk. They're inundated with hyper sexualized content. The other thing [01:12:00] that people maybe don't necessarily know though, is social media is designed.
To rev the dopamine engine in your brain. So if you think about going through stories on Instagram, you're constantly tapping on, right? Cause you're looking for what's next, what's next, what's next. Same. When you get to the bottom of feed, you get that little wheel and then it keeps refreshing.
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. It's seeking, seeking and searching behavior, which is a dopamine producing and perpetuating behavior. Even on Netflix. That's why I refuse. My husband would be like, something on. like, no way, man, you find something and I'll watch it with you. I am like, not getting sucked 27 minutes of scrolling the same stuff.
That's always there. And, and literally the movement is like, it's designed to produce more dopamine and dopamine, they call it again. We said dopamine is good, but when you're, it's a dependency and. Screens and social media in particular, it's, they're designed to rev up the dependency. They call it the molecule of motivation, [01:13:00] more, and pleasure.
So again, just logically, it's motivating you back for more of where you're finding pleasure. But then so many people tell me too, that feeling tips also. They start feeling depressed and angsty the longer they stay there. And that's because they're moving through that cycle to a dopamine deficit eventually.
Yeah. Absolutely. But I think the danger is that it's so normalized and we can talk about dating apps for a second too. Like I tell all my clients that are on dating apps, like most people on dating apps are emotionally unhealthy. I know you're probably mad at me right now if you're on a dating but like if you're caught in a porn situation, there is a level of emotional immaturity because you're using escapism.
Opposed to in approaching and engaging the difficult things in your life and finding healthy ways. So like, you know, if there, if you're on a dating app, you're there for an emotionally healthy, unhealthy reason. So is everybody else for the most part. So like, [01:14:00] Don't get me wrong. are, it is. So like, there's some people that are earnestly trying to find a partner there, but like you're in the wrong place is what I, I told this gentleman last week where he's like, he's older and he was saying that was his word.
He said he was older, but, um, You know, and he's like, I've been scammed out of money. And he's like, all women want is money. And I'm like, Whoa, there, buddy. Like all the women on those dating apps, which are unhealthy, because they're there to try to get money out of people. The ones that you've interacted with, like, that's not all women.
That's just in that place. So like, I always encourage people to join something. Now you can do it all online too, where there's like minded people. And you're, if you're in a. A meetup or if you're in a chess club, the, it's a higher likelihood the people there have higher emotional maturity. And the goal of porn recovery is to increase your [01:15:00] emotional maturity.
That's, if I had to say, there's one number one goal. That's it. And the way you do it is by improving your lifestyle.
Sathiya Sam: Well said. Yeah. I mean, the, the, there's good data now that shows like, you know, 1 percent of guys actually attract whatever it is, 90, 95%. Like it's the, the dating app is like not, it's not everything's cracked up to be. And I do have friends who got married because they met online. So it definitely can work, but
Dr. Trish Leigh: I think it can work too. Like, I don't mean to, but you have to be selective. You have to. You have to be an emotionally mature person to be able to navigate it, to find the other ones there. But it's going to be a sea of moving through. And unfortunately, I think the world is that way too now, you know, cause my,
Sathiya Sam: know. Just in
Dr. Trish Leigh: we have a lot of kids that are young adults now, and, uh, my boys in particular don't have girlfriends.
And my husband's like, what's the problem? I'm like, I'll tell you what the problem is. They're amazing. I go, they don't have codependency like you and I had, which we spent our adulthood [01:16:00] breaking free from, and we're helping our girlies with, I'm like, that's number one. They are totally cool and confident being by themselves and secondarily, they have not found an emotionally, they've had girlfriends, but they are totally cool going a long time until they find another emotionally mature woman.
I'm like, I love it. Amazing. Amazing.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, that's the way it should be. So, um, actually, one more question about social media, and then I have one last thing I want to ask about. If someone's quitting porn, should they be on social media?
Dr. Trish Leigh: No. What I recommend is. You do a full cleanup. You clean up all your feeds everywhere. And this is one other point I wanted to make with you, is that I very rarely go on social media, even though, you know, I use social media for work. Every time I go on social media, I'm not served one thing sexual, even though my work is in porn addiction.
I don't get served, I'm not even kidding, not one thing, there's not one sexual thing that comes my way because I don't look [01:17:00] for sexual content. So because I don't look for sexual content, I don't get served anything. I definitely get served some really weird things that I think some people on team must be looking for because I'm like, what heck is this?
And then I'm like, every time I go out, I'm like, it wounds me, the stuff I see sticks in my mind forever. So I do have that feeling of like, it's like drama things. I don't even know what they are, like, like bad things that have happened in the world. You know, I don't go on anything. So I don't want to know any the bad stuff and it'll stick in my nervous system.
So I very rarely do it. the point is, if you clean up your feed. And you don't go looking for it. It's not going to look for you anymore. So you can totally get to the point, clean it all up. And then I would recommend you stay out for at least a month, but most definitely like 90 days. And you really should stay out till your self awareness increases enough where you.
Decide you're staying out for longer, or you go back in and you clean it up even [01:18:00] more. You know, this is a journey I've worked with a lot, a lot of people. So, you know, we always joke in recovery that, you know, people always want to know how long is it going to take? When can I be done? And the joke is like, you can be done as soon as you realize you never want to be done, nor will you ever be done.
You know what I mean? So like,
Sathiya Sam: so true,
Dr. Trish Leigh: where you're like, okay, the, the amazing thing about my life is I've now learned how to evolve. My life is about constant evolution of emotional maturity, being able to connect with other people, being able to take the risks on purpose and to like, once you realize that is your job of humanity, you don't ever want to go back.
So you're always working towards what you want to create. And that's the job of recovery. So I would say, I would say 90 day washout after you clean, clean it up. Let me tell you one other reason too, because the studies on. Inpatient rehab. Let's just use this idea of inpatient rehab. When you go to [01:19:00] inpatient rehab and you learn everything you need to do, and you're in an isolated environment, this is what the studies show.
If you go right back to the environment you came from, that didn't change at all. People just relapse right away, whether it be drugs or alcohol, sex. If you just go right back into the lifestyle and the physical and mental environment, So you have to clean that environment up in your social media feeds.
Then you go, you get all the tools and strategies, you get the support, you get the accountability, you learn all you need to know. So when you come back, it's already cleaned up. You're not coming back to the same environment.
Sathiya Sam: that's so good. Yeah, I'm with you of the exact same mind on that one. So my last question is, um, you know, unfortunately, there's still a lot of people who would say, Dr. Trish, this is all great. But, um, you know, people who struggle with porn addiction is really more of a moral thing. You know, they're just kind of, they're in their heads a little bit.
Um, there's data that shows, you know, porn can improve sex life and it's got tons of positive effects. [01:20:00] Um, and you know, these are people who are well educated, uh,
Dr. Trish Leigh: I know.
Sathiya Sam: know, have data, all that stuff. I'm sure you've heard it probably even way more than I have. What are some of your, we touched on this in our last interview, but I wanted to touch on it again because I think people are getting confused.
Um, and I, I want to try to get as much truth out there as possible. What would you say to somebody who would say, you know, I don't think this porn stuff is so bad. I think, I think people are just creating an issue out of it from maybe it's immoral, it's ethical, whatever. Um, it's these constructs. It's not really, there's not actual hard science to this.
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah, well, okay, first of all, there is hard science and there's going to be so much more of it, um, up and coming, but there's studies that show what I am sharing here that your brain, you know, talking about homeostasis. Those seeds of addiction that are planted in adolescents, they change the homeostasis of the brain.
They create a neo homeostasis, and then you're working off an underdeveloped brain for the rest of your life, unless you do what I [01:21:00] told you, you stop desensitizing and you resensitize. And what I'm talking about in optimizing the brain pattern is basically growing up your brain pattern, too. Which then allows you to have more emotional maturity, but that aside like I won't I don't even want to go toe to toe with the science because most people's life experiences are not encapsulated in the science and I'm gonna share one really cool thing with you in a second But if you know anybody who struggle with porn if you are somebody who struggles with porn and me I've helped people who Are either they have their toes dipped in the shallow end of porn in terms of the consequences.
There's people who are drowning in the deep end of porn when you see how it impacts a person's life, whether it just be they can't focus at work and they're fighting with their partner all the time. To people who have E. D. and they're young and they can't even be with a partner to what I was [01:22:00] going to share is, uh, I'm doing an interview with a gentleman who's in prison soon because he's written me many letters and he wants to share his story.
Because he's a grandfather who got sucked into voyeur porn, who then, what happens is porn changes the way that your brain functions. And it puts people into what's called the narcissistic bubble, which basically impairs your ability to make good decisions, and it'll create tunnel vision towards what you were watching.
If you've ever experienced anything like this, And if you have the self awareness enough to know what I'm talking about because you might have it might have happened to you and you Don't totally know it because that's why self awareness is so low It's because of the brain pattern but long story short this grandpa put cameras in his bathroom And he then videotaped his grandchildren And he is in prison for it.
Sathiya Sam: [01:23:00] Dang.
Dr. Trish Leigh: And he's like, I need to let people know how this happened because I'm not an anomaly. I am what happens to people if you, and he's written me the letters. Basically he's like, he owned his own business. It was going under, it was going into bankruptcy. He started watching. More and more porn. That porn escalated into this voyeur porn.
Then he had the idea. And what happened is it's an escalation behavior. It's not enough to see it anymore. You want to experience it. I work with people who this happens to them in all different ways. You know, even guys who are at the grocery store, they'll have violent sexual thoughts about other shoppers because that's what they've been watching.
Like it becomes so embedded and the brain pattern becomes so dysfunctional at micro levels or at macro levels.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Dr. Trish Leigh: For regular grandpas who are watching porn. So when it comes to the science, like, yeah, we have science that shows that the earlier you, you were [01:24:00] exposed to porn, the more you're going to be at risk for this, for this compulsion.
There's studies that show that. There's another study that shows that if you are a, a frequent or chronic porn consumer, that your brain will light up more when you see porn than a person who's not a chronic user. So basically it means your sensitivity is you get more pleasure from it. So like that shows up in people's real lives.
It shows up in, in men who have to fantasize to be able to be with their wives, because it's, Of sexual arousal dysfunction, I would, I would challenge each one of your listeners to find a way that that is showing up in your life. And I would challenge each person out there who does consume porn, even semi frequently to see how it's impacting you just like those social media videos that I watch where.
I don't know what one it's like 911 calls. I wish I never saw it. I only saw like 10 seconds of it. It's [01:25:00] like, you know, the worst night I'm like, why would anybody watch like, because then it just makes you like, think about a 911, you know, like, I've got a 911 call in my brain from like, a week ago, like, imagine level.
So like, you know, we can talk about science all day long, the real world impact of this. And how it's affecting people, each person, all they have to do is look into their heart and go, I know what she's talking about. It's made me think something I wouldn't have thought without it. It's made me act in a way I would have not acted and it's gotten me in trouble.
And if it's gotten you in trouble, like 1 thing I'd also like to to think about is. I don't like using the word addiction because there's not a person who can easily admit they have an addiction. Very difficult to get to the place where you go, Oh yeah, I actually am addicted to this stuff. But impact.
Like, just think about, you know, sit down and just get quiet with yourself and using porn blocks your ability to do this. So, you know, it [01:26:00] really does, it blocks your ability to, to think clearly and to feel. But if you can just see for a minute, like, yeah, it's showing up. And again, it goes back to smoking.
Everybody would chain smoke. Nobody thought. Everyone's sitting around in a cloud of smoke until finally people are like, I'm pretty sure this is giving me breathing problems. I'm pretty sure this giving me, you know, respiratory issues.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Uh, Dr. Trish, I always learn so much from we chat. I'm so grateful for you and, uh, dedication to this space. So thank you so much for your time. Um, we'll make sure we put links in the show notes to your courses, everything that was
Dr. Trish Leigh: Yeah. Sounds great. We're updating our website as part of our rebrand, which is really exciting just to kind of round out all the people that we work with and make it easier to navigate. So it's exciting.
Sathiya Sam: Very good. Well, we'll put links to all of it. Thank you again for your time. We
riverside_dr: no problem. Of course. I'm glad to be here. Bye. [01:27:00] [01:28:00] [01:29:00] [01:30:00]
