Adam & Krissa King
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Sathiya Sam: [00:00:00] Hey, hey, what's going on guys? It's Sathiya Sam here. Welcome to unleash the man within. Thank you so much for listening to my interview with Adam and Karissa King. They are the founders of dear young married couple. If you haven't heard of these guys yet, it was probably going to be just a matter of time.
These guys are everywhere. Uh, they have a growing Instagram account. They have a podcast that has exploded onto the scene, especially in the last year and a bit. These guys are crushers and there's a very good reason. Okay. They do a couple of things really well. Number one, they are able to integrate clinical principles and practices.
With theology. Okay. These guys both have their masters of counseling and, uh, I believe Karissa has her PhD in biblical interpretation. Adam and his master had a special, um, uh, apologetics component. And so these guys are heavy on the scripture, heavy on the research and, you know, they have the educational background to support it.
But the other thing that I really appreciate about these guys is to be honest, if you talk to them in a regular [00:01:00] conversation, they're going to You wouldn't even realize just how brilliant they are academically because they keep things very simple. They're very down to earth They're super relatable and I really appreciate that about them I brought them on for a very specific reason and that was to talk about How to resuscitate a sex life after pornography because let's not kid ourselves We know that when there's sexual misbehavior in a relationship it damages the relationship and if it damages the relationship You It damages the sex life and I think a lot of guys, I mean, even even me personally, I found that when I did start having sex regularly, when my wife and I got married, there were remnants of porn brain and my pre marriage experiences with pornography that really were starting to impact my sex life and I didn't know how to rectify some of those things.
I wasn't equipped. Nobody talked to me about it and I had to kind of go and figure some of those things out on my own. What I tried to do today is to present you with, um, yes, some ideas that maybe I've [00:02:00] learned along the way that flavored the questions, but really to extract from two experts who are talking about this stuff all the time, who are literally counseling and guiding couples through these experiences with great success and great effectiveness.
And, um, I think it was a really good interview. You know, I think we covered a lot and I think even if maybe you have an okay sex life and you just want to get better, or if you have no sex life, you know, your marriage is completely sexless and you are ready and you're, you're sick and tired of it and you want to get things back on track.
Look, we, we cover the whole gamut today. You're going to get covered and we're going to make sure that when this is all said and done, okay, by the time this interview is over, You're going to have some really concrete action steps that you can take, and maybe more importantly than that, you're going to have the mindset that's necessary for you to go about having a healthy sex life while in recovery, or maybe you're recovered, and now it's just time to fix this part.
Either way, you're going to be good to go. Okay, I'm rambling. Let's not waste another minute. Let's jump in. Here's my interview with Adam and Karissa.
[00:03:00] All right, Adam and Karissa, welcome to the show, guys. So good to have you
Adam & Krissa King: Man, good to be here. Thanks, Sathiya. We're happy to be on your show.
Sathiya: Yeah, we had a fun interview on yours. Thanks for having me and uh, I'm excited. Now, you guys grilled me, so now I get to grill you back. You know, exact my revenge.
Adam and Karissa: I love it. Awesome. Do one to others.
Sathiya: Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's purely biblical here. You reap what you sow. Um, okay, as a starting point, you guys have done a really good job.
Well, you've done a really good job just fostering your message. Like when I told people from my team that, you know, I was interacting with you guys. We're like, why do your young married couple, those [00:04:00] guys are amazing. You know, I think you guys have done a really good job, um, building your brand and getting your message out.
What I really appreciate about you is you have a good blend of what is clinical and what is biblical. Um, and I didn't, I didn't even realize the extent of your educational backgrounds until I started creeping you guys a bit, and then I realized, Oh, that's why, you know, you have a PhD in biblical interpretation.
You guys both have your, uh, masters of counseling. So it all kind of makes sense. Can you talk to us a little bit about, um, Why it's important to have both, um, because I think in the Christian arena, when we talk about, you know, healthy relationships, healthy sexuality, We tend to just deviate towards one over the other, right?
People are either very strong in the biblical and it's like, this is what the Bible says. And that's that. Um, or, you know, society at large has a huge value for science. Now data, uh, I find, especially with younger people, a lot of people are asking, where's the study? Where's the proof? Um, why do we need a good balance of both?
Adam and Karissa: Yeah. Well, all truth is God's truth. So if for us to, [00:05:00] you know, try to make a hierarchy of truth that man, I'm going to value what this source says over this when, you know, if it's true, it's true. It's, it's God's truth, um, whether it comes from science or literature or archaeology or brain, um, research, um, or scripture, you know, we, in, in theology, we call scripture special revelation.
And then anything outside of scripture is called general revelation. Both are equally as valuable in bringing us truth. Um, now we can. We can have a skewed understanding of the interpretation of truth, both when it comes to special revelation and general revelation. So that's where it gets sticky, um, but it's important for us to acknowledge all truth.
Yeah, I think truth defined is trying to find what is reality, right? And science done well is the study of reality, what is. And I think that, you know, I've [00:06:00] heard someone say, reality is what you bump into when you're wrong. So. I, I think that if we do science, well, they should correlate. They, they should blend together beautifully because we're not trying to avoid like, Oh, I can't look at science because you know, something might disprove my belief in God.
It's like, well, maybe scientists will try to do that. But if, you know, if you're really doing that research, actually, my, my background is in apologetics, you're doing that research so much of God's truth just starts to act like. Overflow out of science. Mm-Hmm. . We don't have to be worried and afraid of it.
Yep.
Sathiya: yeah, it's really well said. And I think it's a good, I just want to lay a foundation here because we're going to talk about S E X today. And
Adam and Karissa: now.
Sathiya: yeah, let's go. And, you know, these, this subject is like very, charge. It's very polarizing. It's all the things, you know, in general and certainly within the [00:07:00] church. So I think it's good just just so that the audience knows we're really going to do our best to tackle both lenses here, the biblical and the clinical and reach a point of truth, you know, just as you guys laid it out.
So I think, uh, you know, traditional purity culture, I don't know, traditional, but purity culture would say, you know, if you don't have sex before marriage, if you kind of do all the things right, Then you get married and the wedding night is just unbelievable. It's a 100 out of 10 and life is just daisies and roses after that.
We don't really need to talk about that. We just need to talk about you not having sex before marriage and not watching porn. Um, and you know, I think admittedly, like we've, we've grown as a culture. We're definitely doing better on that front, especially with guys like you and you know, the voices that you guys are to.
Pioneer what's a healthier, well rounded message around this. Can you update us a little bit from maybe people who did grow up in the purity culture who are trying to, uh, not to use a charged word, but deconstruct that maybe a little bit, or trying to understand what does healthy sexuality look like with [00:08:00] a biblical perspective and, you know, the clinical elements as well.
How do we do that today in 2024 when we're recording here?
Adam and Karissa: Yeah. You want me to take this one? Go for it, babe. Yeah, we were definitely, um, I was raised in a very fundamentalist, uh, background. Um, and I love, I love. You know, the, the people that I'm a part of, you know, very Bible first and that purity culture was really pushed. Um, I had one talk and actually we survey, we survey, uh, we do seminars all over the world.
We survey our audiences almost every single time and say, you know, how many people here was raised that sex was bad. And. You know, 30 percent of the room or so 25 percent how many had no talk about it at all and 50 percent of the room. How many had one talk, you know, good, good, you know, and then how many grew up that Sex was a beautiful [00:09:00] gift to God to be enjoyed in the covenant of marriage.
Um, celebrated to teach us more about our intimacy with God, like less than 10, less than 10%. And boy, that really does hold us back from enjoying the gift that God has given Christians to enjoy. And I mean, can you think of like, A better way to enjoy sex without immorality, without, uh, you know, working on ourselves to be less selfish, more kind and gentle and other, you know, all these things we ought to experience the best sex has to offer.
And yet we are kind of turning our back on that and being influenced that, you know, out there in the world, sex is just. You know, amazing and no holds barred and they get everything. So it creates a really interesting and sad [00:10:00] dynamic in the church. And that's something we're hoping to change. Yeah. Um, I think the lack of discipleship around sexuality in the home is, is a huge, um, issue specifically in the church because, um, We, we kind of see it as this like checklist item, like, okay, good.
I had the talk with my kid or my kids getting, I think they might need the talk soon. They're 12 years old and you're like, Whoa, you missed it. Like, yeah, yeah. And, um, and so we are advocates instead of having the talk, we're advocates of having the talks, plural. With your kids throughout their entire lives, it's, you know, just like any other subject, you're going to disciple them around money, around character, around trust, around, you know, respect.
You're going to have these talks with them from the time they're able to talk around two or three years old, all the way through. You know, teen hood and early adulthood, just like we would teach them about money. Yes. You don't have [00:11:00] one money talk like, all right, they are set for life at 14, you know,
Sathiya: It's so true. Yeah,
Adam and Karissa: not.
Yeah.
Sathiya: yeah. It's a conversation. How early should that conversation start?
Adam and Karissa: So we started having those talks with our kids as early as two and three years old. Now we're not talking about intercourse. Everybody's like, what? Yeah, we're not talking about intercourse with our two and three year old because they don't have a conceptual framework for that yet But we're talking about seeds and we're talking about seeds being Watered and fertilized and when we're planting in the garden or when we have pumpkins in October at harvest and we're you know We're discussing these concepts they understand that mommy and daddy have private time and that mommy and daddy like to be naked together and take showers together and And They think that's awesome.
And they, they look forward to when they get to take a shower with their spouse when they're adult. But this comes from questions of like, Hey, what is this? And why are you doing this? And so we're not lying to [00:12:00] them. We're not hiding the truth from them, but we offer, uh, we offer. As much truth as they need in that moment without, you know, harming them.
Sathiya: Yeah. 100%. So I, I think with the clients that we work with, most of them would have put their hands up for, you know, who never had a sex talk growing up. Um, and I think a lot of our audience would probably be in the same category. I definitely am. And I think what happens is so we, we hear this. So we hear like, okay, no one ever talked to us.
We know that was wrong. And then now you're telling me I need to have the conversation with my two year old and three year old about it. And that feels like a little bit of a leap because, um, I don't know how to do it. I'm still figuring things out. You know, maybe I'm still struggling with pornography or I don't feel like I have it all together.
Um, Maybe it's like, what if I say something I'm not supposed to say? How do you know it's age appropriate? You know, there's, there's so many layers to this. Um, maybe the first layer that I'll ask you guys about is how do you encourage parents to just muster up the courage to talk at all? Uh, to maybe, to maybe try, even if it's
Adam and Karissa: Let me, let me [00:13:00] just back up one, one step. It's going to be very difficult to talk to your kids without giving the vibes of like, this is unsafe to talk about. So we're not going to ask questions anymore. So. They first have to be very comfortable with this subject themselves. Now, how do you become comfortable with any subject?
Well, first of all, you need to know that and assuming that we're talking about Christians here, that, that this is a good thing, a good gift from God, and they have to really actually believe that not just give lip service to that, but actually believe that and that comes from having discussions. With each other of like, Hey, you know, like this is what I want.
And you know, how'd that feel? And like becoming comfortable with sex itself. And then on the other hand, reading the Bible through that lens of like, what is God trying to teach us through this? Because after all, this was God's idea. And the more I talk to people, I find that [00:14:00] they're more prudish than the Bible is. This is true. Like sex is celebrated from the very beginning, like the very first book Genesis, they were naked and unashamed. And then what the devil did is he came in and tempted them and. And taught them to want and desire things that they ought not desire. And it got twisted and then set up all the problems and, you know, hurts and pains that now we struggle with.
God's ultimate design was from, from the very beginning was for a spouse and, you know, husband and wife to enjoy intimacy without shame and, and completely, well be naked. And not feel shame and yet most couples when they go into the bedroom have shame of like we're getting away with this [00:15:00] rather than God's overjoyed that this is taking place.
Yeah, they, they see God as this, you know. person who will maybe give them permission to have sex, but he turns his eyes because this is kind of a shameful thing or an embarrassing thing. It went in reality, like God is celebrating the fact that you and your spouse are having sex. So you have to have a complete shift in your framework.
Um, you know, it's a, it's a paradigm shift, if you will, around what sexuality means in your marriage. And if you are recovering from pornography, um, Or dysfunctional sexuality, then that's going to require some work. A lot of conversations with your spouse, a lot of studying of scripture, counseling conversations with peers and mentors, uh, to, to change the narrative in the church.
And that starts in your marriage. Yeah. And I know we're just bouncing back and forth here.
Sathiya: Oh, this is great.
Adam and Karissa: So, [00:16:00] so many couples, um, when they are influenced by porn and that's, Becoming a massive majority that so many couples are influenced by porn. So what, what does porn do? Well, it gives us a narrative of what sex ought to look like.
And so then when I come in and now force that template on my marriage, There's going to be lots of dysfunction and problems instead of going to my spouse, um, and trying to learn who God has given me and learning sex from that person. So there's an almost unlearning that has to be done.
Sathiya: Yeah.
Adam and Karissa: I'm talking about learning, there has to be curiosity going in and saying, who am I, who am I married to?
What does pleasure? in inside the bounds of marriage that God has created me to experience. What does pleasure look like for both of us? How can we co create that? And then working from that template rather than bringing a broken template [00:17:00] and forcing that on like sex ought to look like this for me to be satisfied.
And that, that's, that's false.
Sathiya: yeah, it's, it's so good. I, I, I agree when people are in recovery. I know we have guys who come to us who have that exact experience. You know, they, some guys who even like, they're like, Oh, I feel bad for myself because my wife won't do X, Y, Z something that they think is normal because of pornography, but, and maybe, maybe it is normal, whatever the heck that means.
But you know, the point is like their wife doesn't feel comfortable and they don't know how to even reconcile those differences because their expectations here. And their experience is below. And there's no, like, like you said, there's no wherewithal, you know, on how to kind of parse these things together.
So I think it's, it's really, really important what you're talking about. When somebody is in recovery, a very common story is they actually do the work. They quit looking at pornography. They feel like they're a new person and their spouse is like arms length, you know, kind of [00:18:00] like, Hey, I'm happy for you, but you know, this was like 20 years of betrayal, you know, like it, it doesn't just change for her.
And sometimes the guy can't even comprehend like, but I'm different. I know I'm different. It's changed. Why does this dynamic exist? Um, and then maybe we can dovetail this into how it might impact the sex life.
Adam and Karissa: Yes. The dynamic exists so. Your past pain is now your wife's present pain. So there almost every single person that I've worked with has this, like, they've kept this secret. They've had the shame. They've had it hidden a long time, or, you know, continue, maybe continue relapses and you're breaking your wife's heart.
Then they finally get pure and they're like, and they feel righteous and there's like a relief. And now they're like, they feel the, feel God, like they've never felt. There's just like this. Yes, I knew, believe me. And the wife's like, no, I just found out you're a liar. And so now is this, this dynamic of like, [00:19:00] you have broke your wife's heart.
And there's two fundamental questions. Trust has been broken. So there's two fundamental questions that now your wife has, that has to be rectified before intimacy can be shared. And those two questions are, how can you do this to me? Okay. And how do I know you're not going to do it again? Those have to be answered and re answered and answered again through the work.
And a lot of times there is, there's a separation between the work they do in the groups and they, and what they demonstrate at home. And so if the man is still acting a lot, very similarly to how he's always acted, Then why should I believe him that he's a new man? So there's so much more that [00:20:00] has to go into recovery, especially when it comes to broken trust than just not looking at porn, there's a really fundamental shift that has to take place.
Inside the marriage and to be honest, it's not like 50 50 anymore You're gonna have to hold the weight of the relationship because she's hurting so you can't be like, okay Like I just broke your trust but like hey, come on stop being defensive stop being hurt, you know so in that frustration more damage is done.
So I know Chris probably has a lot to add here. Sure well in Adam said a A really crucial piece of this. He said that, you know, those two questions have to be answered again and again through the work. Um, and that work is the over demonstration of trustworthiness. You want her trust, but you have to demonstrate that you are trustworthy.
And the reason why we say over demonstration is that if you're just meeting her expectations, That's [00:21:00] baseline. Like, you need to do extra work. So, how can you show her that you're becoming the man that won't look at porn again? That you're becoming the man that views sexuality differently? That you're becoming the man that is transformed?
If, if you're not showing her that through your demonstration, Your over demonstration of trustworthiness, you won't earn her trust. Trust is on a continuum. She might trust that, you know, you can feed the kids at dinner or, you know, she might have trust in certain aspects of your relationship, but to trust you, to be intimate with her, to enter into that space where you're fully vulnerable, emotionally, sexually, she's going to have to see that you are over demonstrating that trustworthiness.
consistently over time. Um, and so how much time? Well, that varies from couple to couple. Um, but we recommend at least a 30 day period, um, of [00:22:00] abstinence, uh, where, and it's not just no sex for the sake of no sex. Um, but it's where you are demonstrating your trustworthiness while you are rewiring your brain.
Um, and this could be longer than 30 days. This is minimum. I mean, it could be, some people recommend 90 days. Um, I'm sure you, you have an opinion on that too, Sathiya. So that's, um, go ahead. Yeah.
Sathiya: I was gonna say, yeah, we, I mean, we've heard different, different people say different things for our show. I think it's different for everyone. Um, but just, just so that people know, this is a biblical concept. Um, like it's, there's, there's a lot of backing to it. And I think the most important thing is just that the, the spouses agree, right?
They agree on the time together.
Adam and Karissa: exactly. And we're not espousing or we're not, we're not trying to push absolutely no intimacy. What we're just saying is we're pausing intercourse.
Sathiya: Yeah.
Adam and Karissa: are things like we have methods that really help rewire the brain in that space or in that time of abstinence That could really bond [00:23:00] the couple together.
So so there's a it's a very active abstinent period
Sathiya: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That is a good distinction because you never put a pause on intimacy in a relationship, right?
Adam and Karissa: Mm
Sathiya: break from intercourse can be really helpful, especially if I'm thinking of guys who are recovering to get a 30 day window or 90 day window, where your experience of intimacy doesn't involve intercourse would be really like, that's really, really valuable.
So I, I like that a lot. Um, what? So, uh, you're talking about, like, the guy, basically, there's baseline where you meet expectations. And that's kind of a given, but because of what's happened, there has to be bonus effort that's kind of put forward. What might that look like? Do you guys have some examples?
Yeah,
Adam and Karissa: I think that's very helpful
Sathiya: yeah.
Adam and Karissa: And. A lot of times what guys do is like, yeah, like I haven't watched porn for, you know, 80 days and [00:24:00] we should be back to normal, you know, sort of thing. Like, and, and, you know, this constant, like, Hey, I need updates.
And, you know, no, I haven't looked at anything today. I haven't, we're struggled. I'm pure, you know? And, and so guys get frustrated that like, I'm doing all the things and she doesn't feel like she's moving with me here. And ultimately what we're trying to, to answer is. The question of trust, if it could be boiled down, is are you there for me?
And so how do we prove that you are there for her? And that's through a thousand different actions. And so here's the distinction that I was going to share. So there's what we call, uh, negative reassurance and positive reassurance. So we believe that you need to be talking about the broken trust a lot.
So, especially at the very beginning, um, like if I hurt [00:25:00] you and we're supposed to be very close together, you know, I need, I need reassurances that you're not going to do that again. And so a lot of times what guys do is they go into what they're not doing. I haven't looked at this. I haven't done this. I haven't gone there.
I haven't. And that's not incredibly helpful. I mean, it has its place. But you lied for maybe years. So how can I trust that this right here is actually the truth. So what we really push guys to look at is the idea of positive reassurance. So now with groups and with, with your conversations, with your accountability partners and with the books you're reading, the podcast you're listening to, uh, marriage books, you're, you're now finally, uh, you know, humble enough to start reading, um, You start sharing the things and nuggets that you're learning. And with all of these things, Hey, babe, you know, today me and Sam [00:26:00] talked about this and this and this, and I realized, you know, from my childhood that, you know, I didn't get a lot of. I didn't get a lot of comfort. I didn't ever get a lot of, uh, you know, and you're sharing these insights about yourself, you know, of course, appropriately.
Um, and what we call that as positive reassurance, what is happening through those conversations, often conversations is that here's how I'm becoming more self aware or self conscious and self aware. And here's how I'm essentially becoming. The man who won't watch porn. And that is so many different conversations and insights into who I'm becoming.
Sathiya: Yeah. Well, it's also a more accurate picture of what's going on. Right? Like if all the partner hears about is whether you slipped or not, or here's how long I've gotten like that's such a, that's like the [00:27:00] tip of the iceberg of someone who's really in recovery. Right? And, um, that's like class as the classic guy thing, isn't it?
We kind of just report like, yeah, here's what happened, but the one wants to hear why, you know, and how'd you feel about it and what was going on. Um, but I agree. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.
Adam and Karissa: add one thing? Cause that what you just said, I'll piggyback on that. It's so important. She also doesn't want to bring it up all the time. She doesn't want to be the nag. So guys tend to only report on what they have to report on because there's shame there.
Sathiya: Yeah. Right. It's like a bare
Adam and Karissa: yeah, so she's like, I mean, I ask every other day and you kind of begrudgingly share.
Sathiya: Hmm
Adam and Karissa: what we try to push is like, Hey, notice when she's downcast, if it's was recently broken, she's thinking about this probably every hour, probably every 30 minutes. Like it's very current for her. This is very painful. So. Noticing [00:28:00] that she, Hey, you know, I could see that you're sad. How are you doing right now?
And assuming that it's you, if it's not you, you're off the hook. Great. But like most likely it's, it has to do with the broken trust, hold her in it. Be curious, be loving, ask her how she's doing and then offer those reassurances. And it has to be, yeah, and those acts are all very courageous acts. We call it walking into the fire, you know, like it doesn't feel good for you to go and walk into what might bring up some more shame for you, but if you're doing your work with your groups and your counseling and your reading and your prayer and you are, you're carving out the shame, then you'll have more and more space to walk into the fire and do that hard work of rebuilding the trust and.
It will pay dividends because she will feel protected that you walked into the fire on her behalf. She didn't have to bring it up and risk, you know, what this could bring up in the [00:29:00] tension for the day you took the risk for her. And that's a heroic act. So that's an example of demonstrating the trustworthiness, you know, is that you can, and also just a side note, that's also a demonstration of emotional intelligence.
And we find that most People who fall into pornography or sexual dysfunction have low emotional intelligence, not all, but most. And so part of the work of recovery is building that emotional intelligence. Adam mentioned self awareness, that's the first part. Then self expression, others awareness and other managing and being aware of and empathetic of others expressions and emotions, um, that's all part of emotional intelligence.
So when you do that, even if she doesn't know all that and she hasn't like categorized it all like that, she is, she's seeing your growth and that's going to help build trust and she's going to want to be more intimate with someone who's more emotionally [00:30:00] intelligent and gets her.
Sathiya: Yeah. So, okay, let's talk about that a little bit. What are realistic expectations around sex life during recovery? And, um, maybe the other thing you guys can touch on as well is after those 30 days or 90 days or whatever it is, what does a, a good reentry back into a full sex life look like?
Adam and Karissa: So during those 30 or 60 or 90 days, we actually have, um, the couple when she's ready and this is led by her because she has to be ready for this. Um, but we have a couple working on their emotional intimacy and physical intimacy without intercourse, um, through a process called Sensate Focus. So Sensate Focus has been around for a while.
Um, it's a really. It's a staple in sex therapy and Sense8 Focus has to do with the five senses, primarily touch but also the other senses. And you're, you're integrating safe touch in the, the relationship without intercourse on the [00:31:00] table. So it's actually really relieving for her to know that like, I'm not going to be, you know, conned into having sex because that's how she feels, you know, she feels like she's a victim here.
So she's, she's. Feeling like, okay, I'm not going to be, um, you know, he's not going to try to beg me, or this is not going to turn into intercourse just because I let my guard down a little bit. So she feels safe to let her guard down a little bit and it's in stages. So there's five stages of sensate. We won't go into all the details, but essentially you start with stage one, which is where your clothes are on and there's no erogenous zones being touched at all.
So this can often happen just on the couch. You know, where you are instructed. One of you is the giver. One is the receiver, whatever she feels most comfortable with to begin with. And, and I'm using he and she, because I know your audience is primarily male. Um, but I mean, this can be flip flopped because it happens the other way around as well.
Um, but, um, so, you know, she will lead [00:32:00] this and, um, he will be either the giver or the receiver, whatever she decides is safer for her. And You're asking the receiver, how do you want to be touched? Does this feel good to you? And it could be like, you know, massage type touch or not. It could just be like a, like a rubbing or a, it could just be a soothing, like placing my hand on your arm or placing my hand on your, on your knee and holding you close.
Um, and so in stage one, it's very basic. And then you do flip rolls when she's ready. And, um, that can take 10 to 15 minutes per session, um, it could take longer if they want it to take longer, but it progresses into five different stages where eventually once that 30, 60, 90 day, uh, period is over and when, when she's ready, it does progress into intercourse.
But it is, it progresses really well. Yes. I mean, the feedback we get from people, I'm, I'm thinking of a couple right now. We're [00:33:00] like, he was so, um, like hesitant. Uh, he was like, Oh my goodness, this sounds like awful. You know, like this is going to fit no sex for that long. And, um, like, I don't know how we're going to do this.
And at the end of it, he was like, that was the best decision we ever made. And she was too. She was like, I felt like I was at a high school dance. Like, you know, just the giddiness and the excitement of like, you know, with no sex on the table, just like, Oh my goodness, like I want you and this is novel and, and, and we're emotionally in tune with each other.
And, um, they were, they were just transformed by the experience and now they're having healthy sex. It's been months now and, and they are having a fully integrated, all five senses engaged, um, safe touch sex without it being this, and they're able to have safe touch without sex too, without it having to lead to sex.
I would add like a lot of women port. Um, [00:34:00] that, you know, their husband only touches them when they want sex so that we call that demand touching. And so what sensei does is it puts a hold on sex and disassociates touching from The desire for sex, which is such a healthy thing because the couple should be touching always right.
All holding hands and playfully just having fun, play, play, being playful is a really big deal in a marriage. Um, but introducing sensei and then saying, Hey, we're going to pause this, but we're just going to touch. And rewire our brains for each other and making touch safe, um, is absolutely important for couples that didn't feel safe before.
And really what we're trying to do with all of the things we're saying, if we're trying to introduce a different relationship, like a lot of times when we're working with [00:35:00] couples, we say, okay, this relationship, you know, in a very gentle way. You know, this relationship in some ways was, it was broken. It's hurting.
Do you want another one with the same person? And then how do we design that? You want a new relationship with the same person? Your, your relationship, regardless if you say no here, is gonna be different. It's just going to be there's going to, there's, it's not going to go back to the way it was just this blind.
Take you for at your word. It's not going to be that way. There's going to be retriggering. That's going to happen. Um, eight years, 10 years from now that, you know, when something happens that she's triggered again. So buckle up for that. But with all of these steps, like sensate, Doing touching, offering positive reassurance.
These are all ways of starting to introduce the couple into a new, more harmonious relationship that's more emotionally attached as well as physically [00:36:00] attached.
Sathiya: Yeah. Man, it's so good. And I can see, like, that would be so profound, I think, even just for someone who's in recovery to go through that and to rewire their brain of, you know, what a sexual experience is, right? And. How much more there is to sexual experience beyond just intercourse itself. Um, very, very powerful.
What are the markers of a healthy sex life when someone has gone through this process now and the couple's engaging more, they're, you know, having intimacy on all the different levels. Um, are there any indicators like you've talked to this, this couple who had this experience recently and four months later, or however many months later, they're doing a lot better.
What, what would you guess are some of the things going on in a situation like that, that make you go. This is how we know it's a healthy sex life, or it's at least a lot healthier than it was
Adam and Karissa: Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of markers, but they fall into two categories. And we call this actually the couples Eros score. So it's one category times, another category equals their Eros [00:37:00] score. And, um, you know, Eros is the Greek word for passionate love. And, uh, we want to love our spouse in all four Greek love ways, you know, love, Dorgophilia eros agape, but the eros one is the one we'll focus on here, which is that passionate erotic love towards your spouse.
Well, in order to have a healthy sex life, you need to, you need a good eros score. And those two components of eros are playfulness and vulnerability. So, if you have a high degree of vulnerability, that means you're communicating well, you're assertive, you're an active listener, you open up, you have emotional intelligence, you're empathetic, you're aware of your spouse, and you take risks together that are healthy.
That's all the vulnerability piece. And then playfulness, you know, how much are we enjoying being, um, somewhat Childish together [00:38:00] where, where we can just crack up at each other's jokes or we can have fun and we can, um, you know, when you think of two children playing, they're not concerned about, you know, how messy things are or, um, order, the orderliness of things.
They're, they're just. Playing. Yeah, exactly. And so how, yeah, to what degree can you just disregard the time and just feel like you can get lost in, in space, in, in the space with your spouse? Um, whether you're reading something together or telling a joke or traveling and on a road trip or having sex or, um, so you have, You have this playfulness score and you have a vulnerability score and if you times those together, that's your Eros score.
So if you can boost your playfulness and your vulnerability, that's a pretty good indicator. Uh, and it doesn't have to be perfect. We all have room to grow with our playfulness and our vulnerability. But if, if you can boost those, um, and it's a good indicator that you might be ready to [00:39:00] start building your sex life more after porn recovery.
Yeah. She's giving you a really fast, high level overview of a whole conference that we, that, that we, we do on this subject, but you, this can be, I mean, this is biblical. This could be tracked back to Genesis, actually how we started today, where we said, you know, nakedness, well, what is nakedness? Nakedness is vulnerability, you know, that really is, that was how it was.
And what is shamelessness? Well, what is the opposite of shame? I would argue it's probably playfulness. It's fun. It's like heartedness. It's Adam and Eve running through the Garden of Eden, you know, taking all the fruits and enjoying all that they had with, you know, The only parameter was just don't eat of that tree.
But their job was to expand Eden in this perfected state without shame and it with God's company. So [00:40:00] essentially what I mean what we're doing and what I think God is offering Um, is that God is offering us to enter into a new relationship, right? And we're to experience that, that beauty inside of marriage.
So if you actually look at song of Solomon, the garden metaphors can be overlaid. With each other song of Solomon and Genesis are beautiful, but it's a redemption. It's a looking forward to what God wants to do with us later, but it's seen through the husband and the wife. So
Sathiya: Hmm.
Adam and Karissa: when you, when you experience playfulness and fun, enjoy, I mean, just think of the fruit of the spirit. And then also, then you think of vulnerability and openness and sharing and, you know, knowing each other deeply, that's all emotional connection. That's what everyone deeply wants, but the, the perverted nature of that would be pornography. [00:41:00] So
Sathiya: Yeah.
Adam and Karissa: God's economy is given this beautiful, uh, just, Invite to experience what he's really wanted you to experience all along.
Sathiya: Yeah. I've never really thought about it that way, but I like those two pillars, like vulnerability and playfulness. It makes a lot of sense because even Song of Solomon is like, obviously there's a deep intimacy to it, which obviously would be more in the vulnerability category, I guess, but there is a playfulness about it as
Adam and Karissa: a hundred percent.
Sathiya: this, there's a beautiful song and dance between the two and it's, uh, That's really cool. So I think my audience. Yeah, I think my audience would hear, um, would hear that framework and they would say, okay, the vulnerability piece I get, like, it's a bit of a buzzword and we do lots of content, you know, encouraging people to open up and, and to, to share on a more intimate level.
Tell me a little bit more about playfulness. Um, cause I feel like, especially in this conversation around sexuality and whatnot, it, I think it's lost. [00:42:00] Um, and I know as a young leader, that was one of the feedbacks that I got. Uh, I was very grateful, but they were like, You take yourself way too seriously.
Um, you know, and I've really tried to work on that over the years. And I, I definitely still have a lot of ways to go. My wife reminds me of that. Um, so I'm like asking for myself selfishly, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. How do you grow in the area of playfulness?
Adam and Karissa: that's a great question. I, I'm glad you asked it actually, because when you said like, I've never thought of that, you know, there really is a song and dance in, in Song of Solomon and I was like, quite literally actually, um,
Sathiya: yeah,
Adam and Karissa: you know, it's, it's And that's an example of playfulness. It's, it's being able to.
Allow yourself to play. So that looks like singing. That looks like dancing. That looks like, um, to, to pull out of Song of Solomon. It looks like fantasy in the realm of marriage and in that covenant. Right. Um, I mean, you see them fantasizing about where they want to enjoy each [00:43:00] other's bodies. They talk about En Gedi.
That's, um, this oasis on the planet. Shore of, of the dead sea, you know, where everything else is dead, but there's this oasis of in Getty. We've actually been there and it's, um, this beautiful, you know, place where they want, they're fantasizing. Let's go there and experience each other's naked bodies there.
And um, so that's a part of playfulness. It's taking risks. You have the vulnerability piece, right? They play on each other. So it's taking risks in ways that make you feel kind of childish, kind of. Kind of guilt free and fun and joyful. So, um, it's not always sexual. Sometimes it's like, Hey, we're taking, our kids are five and six right now.
And so like, as a family, maybe we're making dinner and we turn some music on. And if we're making Mexican food, we'll turn on some salsa music and let's all salsa dance while we're making Mexican food. And that's playfulness. It doesn't have to be sexual. Um, so it's, it's, it's fun. Taking little [00:44:00] risks and getting out of your comfort zone, um, outside the bedroom first and foremost, before you're doing this in the bedroom and, and allowing yourself to enjoy that, um, kind of that juvenile sense of fun.
Well, it's allowing yourself to feel. Yeah, right. Because you don't have to teach a kid. You turn on music. That's lively. You don't have to teach a kid. Okay, now go ahead and shake your bottom and wiggle to that. Like, they just do that there. You know, they start getting down.
Sathiya: It's so true.
Adam and Karissa: It's a natural expression. So like, who taught us and where do we learn to be so stoic to to put on this air of like, I'm not touched by my emotions, which I think God says something very different than that about himself.
So
Sathiya: Hmm.
Adam and Karissa: I think it's, it's allowing yourself and so much of recovery is, you know, feeling again. So when you feel together, and of course that presupposes though, that there is safety. Yeah, [00:45:00] because honestly, like what you're doing when you're bringing in play is you're inviting someone to a party. You're like, Hey, you know, this party is gonna be fun.
This is, it's gonna be joyful. It's gonna be, we're gonna have a great time at this party. Um, but here's the thing is, if that person has not experienced the benefits of the party and it's hurt, And, you know, they don't like the music and they don't like the, you know, you can, you can see where I'm going with this, the food, they don't like the company, um, and they feel forced to go to the party every single time.
It's not going to be a party. And they're not, they're not going to want to accept the invitation. So I think in this, it's like allowing yourself to feel and be fun in, in the invitation and create a party worth going to. I think that's, what's important here.
Sathiya: good. Yeah. That's really good. [00:46:00] So, um, as we kind of wrap up here for people who are listening that, I mean, we're gonna have listeners who are in different areas, maybe just starting out in recovery, maybe while on their way and still mending the marriage or whatever it might be. Um, do you guys have any, maybe like first steps people can take?
I don't know if there's maybe scriptures that you highly recommend people get into, like we referenced song of Solomon. Yeah, there's a whole host of different songs. Um, Or I know you guys have put a resource together. Can you just talk a little bit about maybe some action steps people can take to channel some of what we've been discussing today into something a bit more practical.
Adam and Karissa: Yeah, we have a resource. It's called five steps when trust has been broken and it starts at the very beginning. So, you know, if that's you where you're like, man, I just found out, or I just confessed, my wife just found out, um, it's for you. You can start at the very beginning. Um, and so it helps you understand that there are necessary steps before the person just can trust you again.
Um, and, and so like, for [00:47:00] instance, step one is to take inventory of the pain. This is for the person who was on the receiving end of the broken trust to take inventory of the pain. Um, how has your world been shaken? Since finding this out and you have to actually take that inventory and, and voice that, um, you can write it down.
We recommend writing it down, um, but voice that to your spouse. And then for the spouse who broke trust, their first step is trying to understand the pain that they caused by asking more questions about the pain that they caused, that's hard to do. Um, but that's required. In order to get to the point of, you know, seeking and granting forgiveness and trusting, like they think that, okay, we just have to forgive cause that's such a Christian thing to do.
So, but in order to truly forgive, like we have to actually take inventory of the pain first. So we walk them through those steps. Um, there's five steps for the person who broke trust, five steps for the person on the receiving end of the broken trust. Um, and so that's a free [00:48:00] download. Um, we can drop it to you if you want to put it in the show notes.
But it's,
Sathiya: Yeah. We'll put that
Adam and Karissa: yeah, dear young married couple dot com slash freebie and they can, um, get that PDF. Uh, we also have some videos where we walk them through those steps, um, and share more about those details. There are a lot of potholes in the recovery process. Um, And that some of the moves are very counter to what people think they ought to do.
And, and so it's really recommended to get a counselor to help you. Um, and of course this resource is, it is fabulous. We have our clients, even though they're working with us, we still have them go and download it just to walk through and see what comes up for them as they work through these steps.
They're very helpful. And then for Couples that are maybe a little bit farther along in that process, they're just trying to re spark things, feel pleasure again with, with the other person. I would point them to two different resources. First, [00:49:00] if they can make it, um, we have a, a conference called the Eros conference coming up that.
One so far in Indiana, it was absolutely incredible. We had so much positive feedback. Like it was like the funnest thing ever. So we had a great time. We have two more coming up one in June. Um, and that's called it's in Biloxi, Mississippi. And then another one that's going to be in Houston, Texas, uh, in November, in November.
So like, if you're listening to this and this is different. 2024. Like, and if it's before the time, yeah. Get your tickets. Cause uh, that was incredible. We, we try to be very, very practical there and walk them through with tools because we don't just want to give them like, here's a principle. Do it. We want to actually like.
You know, cause we're counselors. So we want to help them with that. The second thing I would point them to, if maybe it's past that time is we have some card decks on Amazon that you can [00:50:00] look up. Um, we created them really just to help solve a problem that we found. Uh, it's called sexpectations. You actually should google it because you will not find it on Amazon.
It's in the adult section. And it is a safe google if you just stick with the first thing that pops up.
Sathiya: Okay. Okay. Perfect.
Adam and Karissa: So if you say sexpectations card deck, dear young married couple, it is the first thing that pops up. That really did sound like I was sending somebody.
Sathiya: Flesh out the search a bit. Yeah.
Adam and Karissa: Sorry, everybody. There you go. Then you could also just type in foundations on Amazon, uh, couple card decks for those with kiddos.
We have a, sorry, it sounds like we're pitching a whole bunch of stuff, but they're all kind of in this domain. Um, but we have a card deck for parents trying to have conversations with their kids at age appropriate times. It's called having the talks. Yeah.
Sathiya: Very nice. Fantastic. Okay, we'll link all of those in the show notes. We'll make sure that people get a chance and we'll keep our editors busy with all that stuff. It's great. [00:51:00] Um, but in the meantime, man, we so appreciate you guys. Um, so grateful for your work and, uh, praying that God will continue to just expand the doors for you guys to reach more people.
Thanks
riverside_adam_and karissa ki_raw-video-cfr_umw_interview studio_0025: thank you, Sathiya. We're so grateful for your resources, your podcasts and the impact that you're making across the globe. It's so important.
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