789 - Q and A with Sathiya, Shawn, & Oskar
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Sathiya Sam: [00:00:00] Hey, hey, what's up, everybody? It's Sathya Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. So glad you guys are here for another Q& A episode with my man, Sean Bonoteau. Um, look, uh, we have been helping guys quit pornography for a long time. And I personally believe that the, for men in particular, their relationship with their mother is maybe the most critical relationship to look at when it comes to somebody who is addicted to pornography and stuck in compulsive [00:01:00] sexual.
Sean, what do you think about that? Is that, would that be a fair statement?
Shawn: Yes, obviously the first years of life where our memory isn't really acting and when we get older, we don't really remember things in the first year or two, three years of life. And that's the years and the times we are so connected to our mother or need to be so connected to our mother. So what happens in those moments when we're sleeping or getting to sleep, when we're being nursed or not nursed, when we're being comforted or not comforted, you can imagine the implications that has on our attachment.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think guys resent this concept because they usually will say something to the effect of, I have a great relationship with my mom or, you know, yeah, my mom wasn't perfect, but I've kind of. I've let go of that, you know, it doesn't bother me. So what are we really talking about here? If somebody, if somebody does feel like actually, Sean, I have a pretty good mom, still have a good relationship with her today.
You know, if, if everything looks good, as far as they can tell, what should they do? Or, or do they just gloss [00:02:00] over this content?
Shawn: Yeah, yeah, it's really challenging because there's the two elements of the mother wound or the mother dynamic that can be really hard is did mom growing up have any mental illnesses? What was her upbringing like? What is her own story? Because that would easily affect how she raised you and it would be in the years that you don't even remember.
And then the second thing we would look at is how was the marriage in the household? Because if dad wasn't a good husband, she's going to make you her husband. And that's probably why you love her so much, because that's an amazing role to be in as a son, because you become her idol. And that feels amazing as a child, but you can see the implications as you grow up.
It becomes so hard to feel safe with other women because you're always needed, not wanted.
Sathiya Sam: Wow. Okay. Yeah. Let's unpack that. You're always needed, not wanted. Um, that's really good. So needed because you learned to relate to women by being needed by your mother because, you know, for whatever reason, she wasn't maybe getting needs met [00:03:00] in the marriage itself from her husband, from the father. Um, so you learned to be needed, um, and not wanted.
Could you be both with a, with a situation like that?
Shawn: yeah, I definitely think so. There's, there's the drastic triangulation and enmeshment, and then there would be probably a little bit more what I had. Like, I think there was definitely some triangulation and enmeshment in my upbringing, but there was also a mom with heavy depression. So there was, when I was younger, my dad was in a pretty good place, but as marriage went on, my mom's depression got worse.
He definitely had a season where he kind of clocked out and just. became like, he even triangulated me, which is fascinating in terms of disclosing things about their marriage that a child should never know. So yeah, there can be that balance. And I think that actually was, can make it even harder to understand.
And I didn't really unpack the mother wound of my pain and story until like year four of recovery. Cause I just, It never had anybody bring it up. Like, you know, pure desire focuses a lot on the, on the father wound. And there's nothing wrong with [00:04:00] that. I'm glad they do, but it really taught me to think that the issue was with my dad and not with my mom.
And now when we look at attachment theory, you realize that it really does come down to mother. Especially when we have so many guys, we work with that are in their thirties and have never dated. They're afraid of women. They're afraid of intimacy. They're afraid of rejection. You're like, where do you think that comes from?
That doesn't really come from dad. Like it certainly can. But if you think about the first three years of life, was your mom an anxious presence? Was she depressed? How was the marriage? Was there a model of love and kindness or was there silent treatment? Huge question that we need to ask. Cause if there is that dynamic in the household, man, it's really easy to find all your touch and satisfaction in a child and a baby.
Cause they just want all of that all the time.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy that this gets glossed over because to me, it just makes sense. It's like you have these unhealthy dynamics with your mother, you know, your source of maternal affection where you're supposed to feel wanted and that distortion for [00:05:00] whatever reason causes you to some degree to feel unwanted.
And we can't cope with that. Like humans cannot cope with feeling unwanted. So one way or another, we will compensate. And typically that starts to manifest in our sexual, more sexually advanced years in pornography, chasing girls, you know, womanizing, depending on your persona and all of it stems from, you know, these deficiencies and these dynamics that existed when you were a little boy.
We're using two pretty big words that people may not know. So we better clarify, um, enmeshment is when you have relationship dynamics where the boundaries aren't clear. So. In this particular dynamic that we're talking about where a son is in mess with the mother, it just means that the way the mother relates to the son is is beyond that line of what's appropriate for the relationship.
So she's starting to confide. She's starting to get, you know, more emotional needs met. From the sun when really they should be getting met through the husband [00:06:00] or or through God, you know, I guess depending on what we're talking about. So those lines get blurred or they get crossed. Um, triangulation is kind of what Sean shared where like the dad is, um, is frustrated with the mom.
And instead of dealing with those dynamics there, he's going through the child, um, to vent. And maybe sometimes I guess triangulation is sort of the next step where it's like, Um, Maybe you can go change your mom's mind, or maybe you can go kind of do this on my behalf. And so you have kind of the three different people that are all in this dysfunctional shape together, trying to kind of get messages across and resolve instead of, you know, the two people that are at odds or experiencing friction working directly head on with one another.
Shawn: Yeah. Very helpful. Well
Sathiya Sam: yeah, yeah. So, um, investment is super common amongst our clients. You know, we see this a lot. Um, and as I alluded to earlier, clients often aren't even aware that was going on. I was definitely that client for sure, uh, when I was [00:07:00] recovering. So what, what, what would you say to somebody to help them maybe realize that investment was actually at play?
Shawn: Yeah. Jay Stringer in his book, Unwanted chapter five talks about triangulation and enmeshment. I think he does a really good job of it. And it really is this idea of what did you feel or like when you were around your mom as a child, like what role did you play in that relationship? Was it a role of, She pursued you and helped you and was the caregiver, or was it the role of you pursued her and comforted her and were her caregiver?
And that's usually very shocking for guys to realize that they were put into a position that a child not only shouldn't be, but literally can't be. It's just not a place for them to be. And you see that a lot where, you know, You know, we, we'd certainly live in a culture where fathers just aren't living up to the, the standard that, you know, we're, we're called to live up to.
And, and, and I think wives are, they're, they're, they're really searching for that emotional, uh, [00:08:00] what everyone call attachment, comfort, desire to be met. And yeah, I think, um, there's nothing more arousing as Jay Stringer, I think he even says there's nothing more erotic than a mother pursuing, or than, than a mother opening herself up to a son to pursue her.
He even uses that language. There's nothing more erotic than that for a child to be able to see his mother as this ideal woman of, of, uh, he's almost able to control how she feels and that's a responsibility that a child should never have.
Sathiya Sam: yep, it's true. And the best evidence we have of how prevalent these dynamics are is the fact that milf content and stepmom content is top five on Pornhub and all major porn sites here. After flipping year. Um, and that's, that's what happens when these, um, dynamics don't go addressed is they start to manifest in, you know, our sexual development and our romantic relationships.
And so, you know, on the [00:09:00] porn addiction side of it, it's like, yeah, people literally watch these narratives become addictive because they are satiating that, that deeper part of our hearts. That have been unmet and maybe even wounded. So that's what's going on there. But then furthermore, you also get guys who are in romantic relationships, dating, engaged, married, and then they have these, this investment with their mom that now starts to impact their own marriage because the wife can start to feel like, whoa, you know, something's wrong.
Cause our emotional relationship feels. It feels insufficient and it kind of feels like, you know, your mom is always involved in the emotional component here when really it should just be us. And so, um, those are common dynamics on the back end as well. So this is not just like, hey, if you're in mess with your mom.
You're going to become a porn addict. This is like actually if you're in mess with your mom, this creates a slew of relationship dysfunction in multiple areas of your life. And that [00:10:00] relationship dysfunction often is what actually becomes the on ramp to compulsive sexual behavior. Um, and not always in that order.
Sometimes it is reverse order or they're both happening in parallel. But, you know, for those of you guys that are listening, like this is a, this is a major subject. You cannot gloss over this if you really want to experience full recovery.
Shawn: Yeah. Yeah. And even piggybacking off that is like, I think that's where we get a lot of savior syndrome from. Is that we were in the role of savior to our mothers or to our fathers. If we do fall into the secondary part of this, it becomes a an addiction of, I can save somebody and it's almost like I become their Messiah.
And you can just see the, Challenges of that. I work with guys all the time where their marriage is falling apart because they got married because they thought they could kind of save a single mom from being in this hard position or whatever else it might be. And it's such a beautiful idea. And the, the, the, the thing in their mind is like, [00:11:00] I could get, I could see where you got that from, but the very foundation of why you think that way is so broken.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. And it does create like, I mean, this is a, another episode for another day, but this is where you get a lot of the, Nice guy syndrome and chronic people pleasing. And, you know, sometimes that's how the dysfunction manifests. And I'll tell you, like anytime we do a piece on nice guy syndrome, man, like a performed so well, because I think, I think this is like a really, really prevalent issue.
And even like I keep bringing the numbers into it, but even what you talked about with like single parent homes, you know, those are becoming a lot more common. A lot of boys are being raised by single mothers. And so these dynamics are, they're, they're kind of innate, you know, how do you as an eight year old, nine year old boy, how do you know any better?
Because that is, that is really noble that you want to look out for your mom and you know, dad wasn't there for her. So you're going to step up like, okay. That's really commendable. It just, we don't realize the kind of dysfunction it causes on the back end later on.
Shawn: And that's the hardest [00:12:00] thing with guys that I work with is I'm proud of my parents. I saw what they went through and they got through it. They put food on the table, all these like, yeah, that's what adults are supposed to do.
Sathiya Sam: yeah, yeah,
Shawn: what is a good parent look like that, that, that's what parents or that's what adults do.
That's not what a good parent looks like.
Sathiya Sam: right. Yeah,
Shawn: Like you're talking about adults, putting food on the table, having jobs and getting through hard things. That's what we're supposed to do. What is a parent? What does a parent look like? Yeah.
Sathiya Sam: yeah, yeah. And you know, I think, um, I'm thinking about the people who might be listening who are saying, well, you don't know, you know, like I'm thinking about the women in particular, actually, who are listening, who don't have anywhere to turn in anywhere to go. Um, I think if you're in that situation where it's like, I didn't even, and maybe you're like, I didn't even realize what I was doing to my son, you know, cause he was just such a good listener and he was so kind and he was so caring and you know, that mother son relationship is, is really special.
I'm witnessing that right now, even with Shaloma and Judah at just six months. Um, that's a special bond, you know, there's nothing like that. [00:13:00] So I, I totally get it. I think, um, this is also like the onus is a little bit on the women of, of our society as well. To really start to foster those relationships intentionally where they can be transparent and they can share their frustrations because those are frustrating places to be, you know, when you have a husband who is absent, he's emotionally not present and you have to find places to get those, those needs met or to at least be able to process what you're going through, not your kids though, it's not your kid's burden to bear and it's ultimately going to create more problems for them and it's going to create more problems for you as well in the long run.
Shawn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Adam Young says so well, the best gift we could ever give our children and families is to continually work on our own story and find deeper healing within ourselves because we will show up differently for our family. And that's been so true with, you know, I have a three year old daughter, Violet, it's like, you know, three is a whole new stage.
And it's like, [00:14:00] I could either increase discipline and increase this and increase that, or I could learn about myself and understand, like, what do I believe is biblical? What is my value? What is mine to own? And yeah, still discipline, but Is anger part of that? No, I don't think so. I think there's a, and, and I start to reflect on those things and working on my own story of how was I disciplined and what's coming out when I do that and asking those questions.
So there's a lot of empathy there because it means that you have a story of probably your own parents doing this or that and whatever else it might be, and, and there's compassion there, but it certainly doesn't lower the standard of, of what it looks like to be godly parents.
Sathiya Sam: yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I totally agree. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. Um, so Shaloma and I just started doing some marriage counseling on Monday. We actually just started a couple days ago, and it's been really interesting. We both came in like pretty nervous, I think, and I haven't, I haven't really worked with the [00:15:00] therapist, and I guess it would be about 18 months.
Something like that. So it's been a little while for me. Um, and you know, for the listeners of the show, hopefully, hopefully, you guys already know this. But in case you don't, Sean and I are actively seeing professionals for our own stuff. Uh, you know, we don't have it all together. And, um, We, we don't really see it as like, you know, some kind of smudge mark to go get professional help.
This is like, we like growing and we like improving. And, um, you know, I know you and Helen have done tons of work over the years on your guys marriage, and that's why you have such a fantastic marriage. And, you know, Shaloma and I have really run into some friction as parents where we're just, we're not connecting the same way.
We're not getting the kind of time that we're accustomed to together. Um, We put our marriage under a lot of duress going to Jamaica for a couple months and traveling and whatnot. And so it's been really, really good. But, um, it's so funny. So we're so it's 1st, it's the 1st session and this is happening virtually.
And so we meet the woman. She's really, really nice. [00:16:00] And she, she basically, she didn't get a chance to read our intake forms beforehand. We had a little glitch. And so she said, I'm so sorry. She said, normally I wouldn't have to ask you this, but you know, just let me know, like, what are your main goals? What are you hoping to get out of this?
And, um, I, I felt like I knew what I wanted to say pretty quickly. So I start to answer and she says, Oh, sorry. Uh, before you answer, um, I don't really, you guys don't really need to talk to me. It's much more important that you talk to each other. So you can just turn and face each other and tell your wife, you know, why you want to be here and are like, Oh, wow.
Okay. You know, we're like, we're 2. 5 minutes in and here we are. Awkward eye contact and everything. Great. Perfect. So, um, so I, you know, I saw I, I'm, I'm, I was okay, you know, cause I, I think I, we had already talked about it. It's not like she's about to get blindsided by my goals, um, for pursuing therapy together.
So I tell her. And, uh, you know, Yeah, that's, that's great. That sounds awesome. And I'm hearing this and, um, and then she says, okay, Shaloma, you know, what would you like to, uh, or what, what are your goals, you know, [00:17:00] and Shaloma is all of a sudden like just really nervous. And, um, and she did, she did a great job, but we were talking about afterwards.
I was like, Hey, what was going on? And she was like, man, I think it's just, I've been seeing. Um, my own therapist without you, you know, for years, she's, she's done a lot of work, um, and it's been really impactful for her and she's like, I kind of just didn't, I didn't know what to do with you in my space during a therapy session, you know, like it felt so different and I honestly, I, I kind of felt the same way too because, um, the, the first time I saw it there, not the first time, but I guess, you know, Um, one of the most prominent times I saw a therapist was when Shalom and I were engaged, and our engagement was just a huge mess for so many different reasons that were beyond the relationship itself, truthfully.
Um, but, you know, I remember just the liberation of like, oh, I can talk openly, you know, about what's going on and what I'm feeling and the frustrations. And it was just, it was interesting being in that dynamic where. Um, [00:18:00] again, like, not that, not that if I was unfiltered, I would be saying all these crass things about my wife, but it's just, it's just different when it's like, yeah, she's right there and we have to kind of talk through these things and we can't just, you know, talk about them or talk at them.
So, I don't know, did you guys, did you ever go through that when you were doing like marriage stuff with you and Helena together?
Shawn: Yeah, dude. Yeah, it's so real. Um, we did a marriage mentoring through Family Life Canada, which was fantastic. We had a couple that was doing it in person with us when we were in British Columbia, and then we actually became really good friends with the, um, the people that were leading Family Life Canada, Neil and Cheryl Josephson.
So they ended up taking us under their wing and we're just phenomenal. And we were actually, uh, Yeah, experiencing some of that hands on, man, like you really start to dive into things that you would normally talk to just a therapist about. And we ended up getting away for a three day conference. It was virtual.
So we got went to a hotel to watch it and just spend that time away. And we fought the entire three days. It was crazy.
Sathiya Sam: Oh, no.
Shawn: [00:19:00] unpacking things that needed to be unpacked. And that was actually the beginning of a much deeper journey of healing for the both of us. But we, uh, we actually did the husband material, uh, certification together, which, uh, with Drew Boa.
Um, the part of his certification is that you go through his group structure. And this was the first time he ever did it with couples. It was Han and I, and then Drew and his wife. And, you know, you're going through trauma stories, sexual arousal stories. You're going through some trauma.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Shawn: it was so crazy to do that with Helena beside me and she did it.
She had to do it as well, of course. So, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame when you, when you really learn to not be censored
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Shawn: your spouse. And so easy to do that. And I, I, there are obviously times that I still do that and it's like, wow, that's still the fear of my mom kicking in at times.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. It's so interesting. Uh, and, and yeah, that's a, that's a really interesting time with the, the mom thing, because I was just thinking about like, there's layers of vulnerability, right? Like [00:20:00] there's, they're sharing about something you've gone through publicly and that's vulnerable. But I feel like on the scale of vulnerability, that's like, yeah.
It's it's middle. It's like a five out of 10 because those people don't really know you. You're not really going to hang out with them afterwards. There's not like a lot of intimacy, but the level of vulnerability to talk to a therapist is actually super low because they're a stranger. You know, assuming they don't know you, they're not really involved in any circles of your life.
Like there's and that's a that's a really beautiful thing. Like again, that's why I've seen a therapist is so awesome. Um, but then like, yeah. The greatest level of vulnerability is really like being transparent or open with somebody that you have real intimacy with your wife being, you know, maybe the primary or chief example.
So it's just interesting, like just marriage, marriage counseling has just brought, it's, it's exposing a new layer of vulnerability that I'm really not accustomed to. I've shared, I've shared a lot of things with Shaloma retroactively. Like I went through this, I worked through this. I've definitely shared some things present.[00:21:00]
Present day, present moment, but usually I've journaled about it. I've talked to God about it. I've contemplated it, you know, but now we're in this environment where it's like, things could be coming out pretty raw and. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. I'm excited and I'm terrified all at the same time.
Shawn: Yeah, dude. Props to you guys, man. I can empathize with the challenges. Yeah, we've had, we've had marital challenges the last. Obviously like 11 months being in this new country that weren't common before, like just more consistently. Um, you know, last month we've worked through some pretty deep stuff, but again, we've been considering what does that look like to seek some help as well?
There's always, like you said, more breakthroughs to have, especially when you get these new challenging seasons that are revealing deeper things. You haven't dealt with yet.
Sathiya Sam: yeah, yeah, 100%. And like, you know, I don't, I don't know if there's anything more magnifying, I used to say than marriage, but now I say than having kids, you know, having kids just exposes things on a completely different level. So [00:22:00] dude, we should one of these days, because I'm sorry to laugh about you, um, fighting, which, uh, with Helena for three days.
But I, I laughed just because, you know, It's so relatable. You know what I mean? And like, it just, in some ways it doesn't surprise me because Shalom and I've had so many experiences. Um, so I feel like maybe in another episode, we'll talk about that conflict resolution and fighting with your wife, you know, cause we've had to figure that stuff
Shawn: right.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Shawn: Throwing a hotel pillow at the window is not a good idea. Haha.
Sathiya Sam: Not that, you know, from personal experience or anything. Yeah. Yeah. Guys. Okay. All right. Oscar, let's do it, man. With that perfect segue, let's get into some questions here. Okay.
Oskar: Awsome, the first one is from James. He's from Ontario, Canada. And his question is, I was addicted to porn and masturbation for seven plus years, from the age of 11 to 18 or 19. I got into a relationship and was open about it from our first date. She didn't have an issue with it. Over time, I was open with her every time I relapsed because I wanted honesty to be the foundation of our relationship.
We agreed that we wanted [00:23:00] to have the most open, free and honest relationship where we could talk to each other.
about anything. As she grew more in love with me, it hurt her more and more, and she said she viewed it as cheating. And I agree, and I had agreed with that statement from day one, but I still struggled with it.
I began to work harder at stopping and still told her each time I relapsed. I got to the point of being free for months with an occasional relapse. No masturbation, but lingering on images, social media, videos, occasionally, and looking up images of non explicit porn. I have not watched full on porn or masturbated for a long time, probably longest since I was 11 years old, but here's my question.
Recently, stuff came up on my page on social media, and I lingered and sought more out. I was open with my girlfriend about this, and it devastated her after I'd been completely free for a while. I spoke with a mentor, and I was told that not every single sin must be shared with our partner, because
we're genuine and I'm growing, then each little mistake could have only be burdened to our partner instead. In other words, it wouldn't do any [00:24:00] good. I want to know if I should tell my girlfriend every time I make a mistake, especially when I want to be able to talk with her about everything. How can I discern what to tell her and what not to?
And beyond that, how can I help her through all this destruction I've caused? And how can I let go of the weight of all this and just stop thinking about this so much, which caused so much problem and still keeps telling me that she's afraid I will go back and that only fills my mind with memories and thoughts of going back, even though I don't want to anymore at all.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Wow. James, thanks for the question, man, and for the context. For starters, you're crushing it, man. You're doing a really good job. You know, this is amazing to see this kind of progress at a young age. I don't know how old you are now, but it sounds like, you know, seven, seven years that were really intense.
And then you've been able to get to a place where now you're going, um, I'm reading through this, but it sounds like you can go months. Um, and the, the severity of these slips, um, again, not to minimize them, but. You know, [00:25:00] you're not, um, you're not going on these benders necessarily when you are having those relapses.
So you've made some really good progress here. This is kind of an age old question, which is what what do I need to share? And what do I not need to share? And, um, there's I have two guiding principles. Number one is you and your significant other. Need to decide on this together. You need to agree on what gets shared.
Um, and it needs to be established beforehand. So it sounds like you started sharing every time you've slipped. Um, in the name of being transparent, being honest, which I think is great. Um, it doesn't sound like you've necessarily agreed on the specificity or what, what she needs to hear and what she doesn't need to.
So I think there could be a conversation to be had about what she does want to hear. Although I'm guessing that at this point, she probably wants to know every single time, no matter what it is, just because it's gone that far. Um, the second guiding principle is that details are [00:26:00] only necessary when, when asked for, and even then I'd be really considerate.
And here's the reason why. Now, I'm not, I'm not in any way condoning hiding or sugarcoating or any of that kind of stuff. Um, however. Women process this information differently. So guys feel like, you know, when they give a little more detail, they're just sharing facts. Women don't just interpret them as facts.
They, they form stories and they, they put emotional context around the facts. And that's why it can be so devastating. Even though for you, it feels like maybe you're not really sharing that much. And so you have to just be consider it again. It's not an, it's not a reason to sugarcoat or whatever. Um, and I'll give you an example, you know, in my own marriage, I have shared with my wife when I felt tempted to watch pornography, um, but I don't tolerate like what I felt tempted to watch or how I was going to do it.
Or, you know, whatever, those details just aren't necessary. Um, and I, again, it doesn't sound like you're doing that, but I'm just giving you an [00:27:00] example of like, there's, there's, there's, you know, principles that can really go a long way. Um, the other component I want to add here, and I won't, I won't take it up too much cause um, Sean will have some good input for this one, is your wife is experiencing betrayal trauma.
This is pretty classic. I think if, if, um, to, to paint a picture of what it would look like in a perfect situation, if you had a wife who had worked through betrayal trauma, done her work and whatever, is she would, she would still be impacted by what you're sharing. Um, I don't think she would experience this level of devastation.
Like the level of response to me is indicative that something is going on here. Um, and sorry, I said wife, it's your girlfriend. Um, but there's something going on here, um, that your, your behavior is poking something in her that is probably rooted in some sort of trauma or wound. Um, and so I think that would be the other piece of this puzzle.
Um, Um, and we can talk a little bit about maybe how to broach that conversation, but just so that you understand what's going on [00:28:00] and why she's responding that way. Um, because without that, that understanding, we tend to just blame ourselves and what was me and I'm doing everything wrong. It's 100 percent my fault.
And based on what you've outlined here, I don't think that's the case. I think your wife has some trauma that's being aggravated every time she's getting this news from you.
Shawn: Yeah, it's really, really great question. The details sounds like there's some great progress. The thing that stands out to me, James, is you said I began to work harder at stopping. And usually when somebody uses that kind of language to me, it's a red flag. Um, and then when they use the word freedom. But clearly aren't showing signs of freedom, working harder usually means willpower and behavior management and internet filters and all that stuff.
And we've talked about that pretty extensively. So I'd really be curious about, like, what you've done to get to the root issues, what you've done to heal, because it sounds like there's some tie that's still there to you escaping with erotic imagery. Uh, [00:29:00] whatever it might be, if it's no nudity or not, it sounds like there's some sort of escape that you still have and what I'm actually hearing from this, which could be totally off, but I see it a lot.
And this was my story is when your girlfriend responds the way she responds. It's affecting you. You're already afraid of her response. I'd be really curious about how your relationship was with your, was with your mom when you made mistakes, when you failed, or with women in your, maybe with sisters or female teachers.
I'd be really curious what your story around women dealing with your failures. And what does that do to your identity? What does that do to your belief system? Because it sounds like there's some roots here that just haven't been dealt with, and that's an opportunity for you, man, to dive into the deep rooted healing that obviously you can find in The Last Relapse.
A lot of the coaching I do with guys is really focused and honed in on that, but some simple things you could certainly look into would be inner child healing, attachment theory. Those are things that we talk pretty extensively about because we believe they really work. So that's been a foundational [00:30:00] modality to the healing that Sophia and I have had.
So that would be my take on this, James. Um, but again, it sounds like you have made some great progress and I think your heart's in the right place.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yep. I would agree.
Oskar: The next question is from Dennis in Germany. I'm 26 years old and never really talked to anyone about anything related to sex. Not my parents, teachers, friends, pastor or youth group leaders. I know that I should find someone to talk about with my struggles with pornography, but how exactly do I do that when I never talk about sex related topics with anyone?
I know I have to trust this person, but how can I be sure to trust someone with this topic?
Sathiya Sam: Wow. Yeah. It's a great question. You know, I think this is a question a lot of people are asking in their minds. And, you know, there's different reasons for why this subject so uncomfortable. Um, and it's not just that you haven't talked to anybody, but it sounds like nobody ever made an effort to talk to you about it either, Dennis.
And so, um, you know, just to just to [00:31:00] make sure that, you know, we understand where the responsibility lies, you know, people were supposed to. Talk to you about this and equip you and make it safe for you to be able to have these conversations. And the fact that they didn't means, you know, they kind of, they kind of came up short in that area.
So don't shoulder all the blame here. What, what I would typically advise people to do when, you know, they're ready to open up and they're ready to start having these conversations is I would ask you, who is the person that you trust the most in your life? You know, like, let's forget about the subject of sex and pornography and whatever.
Let's just ask who is the person that you trust the most that you, you could be pretty sure if you told them something that they could, they could be able to keep it in confidence. That's where I would start. Who is that person who comes to mind? That's the best person you can talk to. And even if it is your, your grandma or, you know, someone where it's like, man, that could be a little uncomfortable.
Depending on the nature of the relationship, you can, again, you don't have to share everything and your first time sharing. I actually recommend people don't share everything. You know, I think it's [00:32:00] better to ease your way into it. Otherwise you get a vulnerability hangover where you just put everything out there and it feels really good in the moment because you're kind of releasing everything and then afterwards it's actually like it becomes like too much.
And you become really paranoid, really anxious. Um, I don't think it's a good way to go about it. So that would be my, my greatest recommendation. And I, I think we were talking about this earlier in this episode. Uh, but we, we did talk about the levels of vulnerability, you know, and how being vulnerable with a professional, uh, well, let me say this.
Properly being vulnerable with a therapist, you know, or a counselor or somebody like that, who is kind of paid to be able to listen and to guide you through these. But in a really safe and compassionate manner, that could also be a good place to start. Obviously, it's going to cost some money, but that's a really small investment to make in you being able to.
Speak freely and openly about your issues and to start to get the ball rolling. And that might be a better way than to open up with somebody [00:33:00] where there is a relationship. Cause maybe that feels like too big of a climb. So that would be another, another option, um, as well.
Shawn: Yeah. I think there's, uh, one idea that I'll share is this idea of like relationship. When you separate those relationship, I remember doing a talk one time about how relationships are, is like, you can imagine like a boat and it's sailing towards something like it, it takes time and progresses. So, you know, you could certainly talk to somebody that you trust.
Talk about some of the things you're struggling with. That doesn't have to be sex. You can gauge how they respond. You're looking for somebody who's safe, who's curious, who you feel like they hold what you're saying and ask good questions. They don't just try and shoot back with a solution. So that's really important.
I think we have this progression. You don't have to fire host somebody. Like the first time you talk to them, you don't have to unload everything. I think that is one of the fallacy, the lies that so many guys believe is like, if I'm going to talk to somebody about sex, I have to just talk about Lay it all out of the table.
First time I meet them. I don't believe that. I don't [00:34:00] think that's really necessary. Um, but the other thing I'd encourage you to consider is Sophia tied into this. It's like, It's not that you didn't talk to anybody about these topics. No one talked to you about them. But what I would be curious about is what was the messaging you got about sex growing up, not just the fact that it wasn't talked about, but what did you learn about it in the fact that it wasn't talked about it, you'd learn that it was dirty, that it was.
wrong that it was like, there's a lot of different messages within the church outside the church as well. So I would really encourage you to consider what are the things you believe about sex? What are the things you believe about talking about sex? What are the things you believe about yourself for struggling with sexual struggles?
Because that is going to be a huge element to you being able to open up with somebody because what you're looking for is you're basically looking to take a calculated risk to say this person Literally spends their life discipling people and helps them with addictions, probably a pretty good person and to trust with these sorts of things.
So I would even encourage you to look for people that run addiction type of groups in a church [00:35:00] or something along those lines. Look for somebody that is retired from their job and their life mission is just to give back to young men. Like, it's so valuable to find those sorts of people because. That's literally what they do on a daily basis.
They, they wait for men to come up to them and say, Hey, can you mentor me? Hey, can you help me? That's been like the saving grace for me in so many seasons. I've had like seven mentors in their seventies and eighties. Cause those are the guys that just every day wake up to help young men. Be healthy and what you're looking for in those kind of people is are they safe?
Do they listen? And do they ask questions rather than do they just shoot a solution at you? Do they try and make it seem like you should be doing better? Because that's not what you're looking for. Um, so there's a lot of food for thought there. There's obviously, um, some really bad content out there. Um, but if I could really just say you're looking for somebody that could disciple you.
Ultimately, and within discipleship, that is going to be sexuality. It's going to be faith. It's going to be your career. It's going to be your purpose. It's going to be friendships. That's the kind of relationship that I'd encourage you to seek out as someone who can disciple you.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah.
Oskar: [00:36:00] Next question is from Andrew in Toronto, Canada. I've learned a lot from DeepClean and I'm working on uprooting my many roots from my upbringing. I have a 16 year old brother who of course still lives with our parents. I spend a fair amount of time with him, so how can I best influence him so he doesn't turn to porn or other unhealthy coping mechanisms?
Sathiya Sam: it's awesome. Andrew, fellow client. What's up, man? Uh, cool to hear your question and glad to hear you enjoying the program. Uh, this is a great question. And I think a lot of people listening are big brothers, uh, maybe biologically, or maybe you're just, you know, a person of influence or that sort of thing.
Um, I would say there's, there's two things in particular, and this is true pretty much across the board. Number one, the best thing you can do is be an example, you know? So the fact that you're in a program, you're doing the work, that's, that's priority numero uno, so that when you do have these conversations, it's actually coming from a place of authority.
The worst thing you could do is advise someone in an area where you don't have authority yourself because you'll end up giving them advice that doesn't work [00:37:00] and then they'll think something's wrong with them because it worked for you, even though it didn't work for you because you don't have the authority.
Hopefully, that makes sense. So I think it's a really like what you're doing is exactly right. You know, you're taking care of these issues yourself. And now you're developing that compassion, that heart. And you want to have a better influence. Um, you know, an older brother can play a really critical role.
And I, I, I know this being an older brother myself and I have a younger brother and you could be that person who actually, um, can safely have these conversations or inspire healthy ideas around sexuality. And, um, and give your, your younger brother who, you know, if he's 16, he's already been exposed to pornography for sure.
Um, I mean, almost guaranteed, especially if, if you were as well, you know, you grew up in the same home, um, you could be that, that lifeline or that person who can have those conversations really safely without, you know, without trying to, uh, Fix him, uh, without trying to condemn him, you know, all that kind of stuff.
And that would be my big recommendation. And one of the best [00:38:00] ways to do that, one of the easiest ways to do that, and I've done this even with my own brother is just to bring up my own story. Um, and so not even like, and you don't want to do this in a manipulative way. Um, but even just to say, Hey, you know, I want to share something with you.
I've actually been going through, you know, you can say this because you're going through a program. I've been going through this program. I'm working on, you know, getting for your pornography. Um, you know, I just want to let you know that if you ever do want to talk about this stuff, you know, I'm figuring a lot out myself.
I don't have it all. Together, but if you want to have a conversation, I'd be really happy to do that because, you know, I didn't have anyone to talk to, and it got me into trouble, and I would love to be someone that you could talk to, you know, something like that could really go a long way, not only because it lets him know that he can come talk to you.
But you're sharing about your own struggles. And so now it doesn't feel like he, like you have it all figured out and he's the one that's wrong because then that's really difficult to be vulnerable. But if you can be transparent about your own shortcomings and you might have to do this a couple of times before he actually warms up, that's how [00:39:00] I would go about it.
And this is, this is really going to give you that, you know, the word that you use, I believe was influence and that is the right word to use. And I think this is probably going to give you the best influence on him.
Shawn: Yeah, yeah, I think I know the Andrew that this is. If so, great question. Uh, it's an interesting question for me. I have a lot of sadness around the way that I was a brother to my sisters, but particularly my younger sister. Um, and now it's just so hard to be in contact with her, with the distance. Uh, she's very, very hard to get ahold of her.
And yeah, I admire this because it's obviously a place in my heart where I wish I did a better job and I wish I could do a better job today, but struggled with that, wrestled with that. So for you, man, if going based off of, if it's the Andrew I'm thinking of, I won't assume it is, cause I don't want to give an answer based off of that.
But. You know, what we learn in inner child work, the second step of learning about the boy, the curiosity, the compassion, the understanding, [00:40:00] what a gift we could offer to somebody who's younger than us. It's the very nature of a young person wants to be pursued by an authoritative figure, an older figure.
That's where we get, yeah, the milf porn from, et cetera. So what an awesome gift it would be to ask him really heartfelt questions to see where he's struggling in life with. Commitment, discipline, whatever it might be, and just say, like, Dude, like, do you, do you want to talk about that? What's, what's the main struggle there?
What's at the heart of that issue? Have you thought about that? Love to love to just be a heart with ears, man. Just listen. Uh, I know I didn't have someone to just listen to me when I had those sorts of struggles. So like, you know, what would it look like for me to be there for you in those times? So asking really good questions and just offering a ton of understanding of men that just must be so hard.
You know, I know what it's like to grow up in this house. You know, if it's the same as it was when I grew up, I am assuming that was just as hard for you as it is was for me. So lots of language like that. And, uh, I, I think that's such a beautiful question. And obviously your heart's already in the right place.
So it's [00:41:00] awesome, Andrew.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, well done, man. We're cheering you on. Uh, look, thanks so much for listening guys. And again, if you do have questions that you want us to answer, please submit them using the link below. Uh, we'd love to answer them and see how we can help you further in your recovery journey. In the meantime, if you don't have your copy of the last relapse, that's a book we referenced a little bit today, lots of resources and tools for you to experience a full recovery.
You can get your free copy at the last relapse book. com in the meantime, God bless you guys. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you soon. [00:42:00]