What's up, everybody? It's Sathiya Sam here, welcome to unleash them and within thank you guys so much for listening. If my voice sounds a little bit funny to you, it's because I'm just coming over pretty bad head cold here and doing my best. And I actually did the interview today in this kind of condition. But I didn't want to reschedule. I've been trying to get this guy in for a long time, because he has such an important message to carry, and one that I've been longing to share with you. And so I wasn't going to miss this. And thank God, I was feeling good enough to do the interview. So here's the deal. I personally believe there are lots of great theories and modalities in the place of clinical psychology, that have really allowed us to have better lives, better mental health, and everything else. And, you know, every Theory and Practice, generally speaking has its place. In other words, depending on the demographic, or the environment, or the specific disorder, it's going to be more effective than in another one. But then you find occasional theories or practices, where you just you realize, oh, my gosh, this is applicable everywhere, for everything, and everybody needs to know about this. And that is how I feel about attachment theory. And I imagine there's tons of people in the field who would argue me about that, that's fine, they can have their arguments. But as far as I'm concerned, this is one of the most pivotal theories that has come out of modern psychology in the last two centuries. And so, today, we have done a deep dive into attachment theory, what is attachment theory? And, and basically like, what is what are the different kinds? How do you know what kind you are? And most importantly, what is the implication for attachment theory in addiction, and it's actually pretty obvious when you get into it, although you may not realize it right out right away. But the cool thing is when you understand what attachment theory is, you understand how it plays into addiction, then Tada, the solution kind of presents itself. And it may not be that crazy to you. But I just love the way this conversation went. And I didn't pick anybody to talk about such an important subject. I picked Dr. Jake Porter, who is a renowned psychotherapist worked as a pastoral leader for 10 years before he got into this space, and he has a bullying practice. I mean, this guy is just unbelievable what he does, and the people he reaches, and really the way he communicates that you're gonna find out why he's in such high demand. So I want you to go ahead and listen to this, take some notes. And I can pretty much guarantee you if you were still in recovery, even if you're recovered, but you know, there's still some cleanup to be done. Maybe you just want to see some improvement in your relationships. This podcast is going to offer you a door or a window into a theory that could really change your life. So, welcome to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Let's tune into my interview with Dr. Jake Porter. So here's the million dollar question. How are men like us who work hard, have good motives and a God given purpose, supposed to fulfill the calling on our lives and the dreams in our hearts? All while establishing sexual integrity, live in relationships and a meaningful connection with God? That is the question. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Sathiya Sam, welcome to unleash the man with
Jake Porter, it's a pleasure to finally have you on the podcast man. Welcome.
Hey, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. It's delight.
So we got some big things to tackle here. I'm I'm so passionate about attachment theory. And I know you are too. And I think it's got some major implications for addiction for relationship patterns. And you know, just the whole gamut. So we'll get into those things first, but why don't we share basic let's talk about what is attachment theory? Yeah, so
attachment theory is it's a it's a school of thought that came out of British psychology originally actually counting John Bowlby, who was a British psychologist, back in the early 20th century, he started saying he sort of really challenging the, the dominant ideas of the day. So back then Freud was King, right? And Freud, not to get into too much depth here, but Freud was all about internal drives. And he said that, that our problems came from conflicts in our internal drives, and Bowlby was one of the first people will say, Hold on, hold on. I think some of these conflicts are interpersonal, I think some of them are rooted in relationships. And and that was it was a huge challenge. In fact, in school, he had to like not talk about it, because people will just just shamed him for it. You know, it can't be, can't challenge Freud. But turns out that he was right. Because along with the work he was doing, other work that other researchers were doing started to show that and this is this is the heart of attachment theory that our drive to attach to others is a primary drive not a second Dairy drive, whereas it was believed Oh, an infant attaches to the mother because the mother provides nurture food. Right? It's about individual desire. That's right. It's actually about the connection itself. The connection isn't a utility or a means to a primary need. The connection itself is a primary need. That was a huge paradigm shift.
That is massive. And I think that was in like the 20s. Right when Bobby started to come up with that idea. But it took a long time before it actually got traction, right? It did.
So in the 20s, he starts writing in the 30s. He's doing some research, he actually got commissioned by the World Health Organization, and he studied young people who at that time were young adults who as children's had been orphaned or sent away from their parents during World War One. And hid the findings from his research were so dramatic, it was like people had to start paying attention. And then at the same time in parallel, you have guys like Harry Harlow, doing research when people will have heard this, if they took a you know, intro to psych class back in college, the the little monkey who put the baby monkey in the cage, and on one side, there's this wire, mother monkey who has food. And on the other side is this warm, terrycloth soft, mother monkey figure. And what they found was this baby monkey would run over, get a few sips of food, and then run back to the soft monkey. And they can show distress if that nurturing figure was removed. And so that was just from another angle, another stream of research that saying, hold up this connection thing is a primary not a secondary drive. It's fundamental to our needs.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So you can kind of imagine how that'd be pretty groundbreaking. And it's funny, because I think there's, there's tons of relationship research now, all these years later. And here we are, as a society 2022. And we're still seem to be figuring this thing out a little bit. What what were what is the, I guess, the premise then of attachment theory, so we know, okay, connections actually fundamental. This is not secondary in our needs and desires. And then there's some categories, obviously, that people typically fall into somewhere. It's more of a spectrum than it is categorization, but, but they're obviously the types.
Yeah, sure. So. So the idea is, like you just said, We need connection early on, it's a primary need. Specifically, we need what's called secure attachment. All right, we need to develop a secure attachment relationship with our caregivers. So let's start with defining that. Okay, secure attachment means that there is consistent repair after rupture. Okay, so it doesn't mean there's never a break in the relationship. Because think about I've got a two year old right now. Okay. There are ruptures in our relationship, right? Sometimes she wants candy. And I say, No. Sometimes she wakes up at night, and she's had a nightmare. And I'm not right there next to her at the crib, right. Sometimes we're at the park, and she's running and playing, and she falls down. And it takes some time for me to get to her, those are ruptures. But the consistency of the repair after the rupture, trains her literally at the level of her nervous system to trust that the repair is coming, which means she doesn't have to fear the rupture so much. So in other words, we can be close. We I can feel safe, close to you, because you're nurturing and you're caring. But guess what? If you have to go away for a minute, I'll be okay. Because I trust you're going to come back. Hmm. So that secure attachment? Right. That's the goal. That's what we all strive for. But unfortunately, for a lot of different reasons, we can develop some other styles as well.
Yeah. Okay. So one thing because I know some of our listeners, like the neurobiology part of this, and you touched a little bit on how even the nervous system is at play here insecure attachment. Why what's going on? Exactly? When somebody is securely attached?
Okay, that's a that's a fabulous question. I love this question. And I'll try not to geek out too much. Okay. So the infant nervous system. And, and this is true to varying degrees, all the way really up until adulthood, okay, late adolescence and adulthood. That but especially in infants and young toddlers, the nervous system is not able to regulate itself. Okay, so the infant nervous system is dependent on an external nervous system to help it return to a state of regulation if it gets dysregulated Okay, so In this, this is going to upset some people, but I'm gonna say it because it's true. So the idea of self soothing, is is not real. For like a two month old, four month old six month old, even eight month old, there's not a lot of self soothing making a little bit. And over time you helped build capacity. But do you know where the capacity to self soothe comes from? From being soothed? Right? So when this external nervous system, Sue's me, I'm afraid, they helped me feel safe, I'm angry, they helped me get back to a place of being grounded, right? I'm sad. They helped me feel okay, I feel shame. They lift me out of that shame. And all of those capacities have to be built into us from an external system. And they come through the repeated experience over and over and over. It's like, okay, there's this quote from the Dalai Lama that I that I really love. Okay. He, he was asked in this interview, what do you do when you're afraid? And his answer was, I remember my mother's love. Wow. That is attachment that is secure attachment. So my mother's I felt my mother's love so much. I've internalized it and can recall it on my own.
Yeah, got it. Okay. That secure attachment. Okay. Okay. So when somebody's done this, well, I like when a parent has, I guess, done this well in establishing with their kid. It's not that there's an absence of ruptures, it's that there's a constant presence of repairs.
Absolutely. In fact, if you try to stop ruptures from happening, you will end up causing one of the types of insecure attachment,
right, because they can never adopt their own ability to self soothe, so to speak. Right?
Yeah. And they always wonder what happens if there is a rupture. Right, like, like the helicopter parent, that's always they're always they're always they're always there. Right? It's like, well, what happens if they do leave? Right? And so so that creates an intolerable situation for the young nervous system as well.
Okay, okay. Got it. So, we have kind of a picture of the ideal here now. So we know if everything goes according to plan, we're all securely attached. We have that regulated nervous system, we develop the ability to soothe ourselves, as we get older, and it gets stronger, and we become more independent and, you know, life got it. Easy come easy go right? What happens when the system starts to fall apart, or maybe is not functioning perfectly.
So so what happens is often if there's not that consistency of repair, after rupture, then we develop these other types of attachment styles, okay. And there are different sort of sets of labels around these, I'm just going to use the ones that I typically speak to my to my clients and folks I work with. So one would be what we call dismissive attachment, a dismissing or dismissive attachment style. This is going to be someone who does not want as much closeness, okay, and I'm not just talking about physical, closeness, emotional, relational proximity, I want you to see me I want you to know me, I want you to hear my thoughts and hear my feelings, all of that. So this is going to be someone who, who wants more distance, but at the same time, they also don't externally show and they're likely not really in touch with anxiety about abandonment. Now put those two together. So I don't need to be close to you. And I'm not really worried about you leaving. See how that comes across as dismissive. Right. Yeah. Right. So so the partner of someone with dismissive attachment is going to be like, it's going to it's going to the message they're gonna get from the dismissive partner is Alright, whatever. See it go fine. All right. You don't like what I'm doing. Alright. Doesn't matter, though. Doesn't matter. Going. It's kind of like it's kind of like in the old peanuts cartoons. You've got Schroeder is the piano player. All right. And Lucy is in love with Schroeder. And but Schroeder just could care less. He just will not show her the time of day. Except that in a few of these comic strips, there's there's ones where like she's sleeping or whatever. And then he'll sort of whisper to her his true feelings, right. Okay. Now now, here's it. Here's a good way to know if you're dismissing. Okay. Have a dismissive attachment style. You're easily overwhelmed by intense emotions, and more likely to just kind of go into shutdown Okay, so So at the level of the nervous system, dismissing attachment style is going to be very easily triggered by big overwhelming emotions. Okay. All right. So that's one kind of on the opposite end is something called preoccupied. Attachment. Okay. And in the best way to think of this is they're preoccupied with the relationship. All right, so they want to be close, they want to have lots of proximity. And even with the proximity, they're still anxious about abandonment. Okay? So they're actually going to be super sensitive to anything that looks or feels like abandonment or miss attunement, like you're not understanding me, these people are going to go upward in intensity, they're going to have lots and lots of words, they probably repeat themselves a lot. And they're hypersensitive to if you pull away or whatever.
Okay, got it. So would it be fair to say that these two opposites could attract in relationships on a regular basis? Because I know my wife and I, we sometimes laugh when we listen to stuff on attachment theory, because, you know, I'm definitely more on the dismissive side, and she would be more on the preoccupied side. And when we talk with other couples, it's very clear that we're not alone. Do you observe that in your office as well,
I would say between 80 and 90% percent of the couples I work with, that's the case one is dismissing and the other is preoccupied. And of those, I'd say probably 75% of the time, the husband is dismissing and the wife is preoccupied. Now I have absolutely had it reversed. Sure, absolutely had to preoccupied people. Those are high conflict couples, like Hubble, and we all have, we all know somebody right? Where they like, they fight all the time. They're constantly into it. But at the end of the day, they're like, happy as they can be really, they're just, they're probably too preoccupied people. Okay. And then you can also have two dismissing people, they're the hardest to work with. Because they both they like collude with each other to avoid intense emotion, or conflict. You know, it's really hard to work with us. But but the bulk of the time, we do see a dismissing partner, and a preoccupied partner, and it creates this incredible dance. So So think about those two as I just described them. So you've got the preoccupied partner who's very sensitive to anything that feels like abandonment. Right? Right. So let's say the dismissing partner is just having a lot of alone time. And it kind of triggers the preoccupied partner. And so that preoccupied partner, I'm just gonna say sheet because that is what I see most the time goes upward in intensity, hey, what's going on with you? Where have you been? You know, why aren't you know? What's, what's wrong, I can tell something's wrong. So here's this intense emotion, which triggers what in him overwhelm. And as he's going into overwhelm, she's feeling he starts to pull away, as he's pulling away what's happening in her more fear of abandonment. So she goes up even more in intensity. And as she goes up even more, he wants to pull away even more, and they're just moving further and further apart.
Okay, got it. So, okay, I want to ask a ton of questions about these relationships, even for my own benefit. But I'm going to put a slight pause on it, because this obviously has a tie into addiction as well. Yeah. Yeah. Should we cover the other attachment style before we get there? Would that be helpful?
Yeah, let's let's do it. Let's do it real quick. Yeah. So the other one is really just someone who is both dismissive and preoccupied. And they flip flop back and forth and can turn on a dime. And it's called disorganized or it's called fearful avoidant. And there's really only one way that you become disorganized or fearful, avoidant, and your attachment style. And that's when the person who are people who are meant to be the source of comfort and security simultaneously become the source of distress and threat. And so think about it one person, both comfort and security and distress and threat. It creates this, come here, go away, push pull, sort of dynamic, I need you but you're scary to me. Right? Well, you're you're a threat to me, but you're also the one that keeps me safe. And so literally again, at the level of the nervous system, there's this programming that creates this push pull, come here, go away. I hate you don't leave me kind of dynamic.
Yeah, really? Yeah. Really helpful. And I mean, to give people an idea, you know, they've done studies on people recovering from PTSD as people who have any attachment style, basically other than disorder. As attachment tend to do much better in recovery. So like this stuff, this stuff can pretty much affect any area of somebody's life and their mental well being. I wanted to ask one final question because we have parents listening. And, you know, parents often are listening because they want, you know, they, they want to either prevent their kids from getting exposed to pornography and developing addictions and that kind of stuff, what we focus on, or maybe their kids have encountered, and they're trying to help them. But I can imagine some parents are listening to this thinking, Oh, my gosh, if I didn't repair properly as a kid, or as a parent, rather, when my kids were young, what might I have caused in my, in my children? And I guess the question I have is, number one, maybe what would you say to a parent who's who's maybe feeling that as they're listening? Number Number two is? Does the way somebody parent in any way affect which direction a child might veer off? Whether it's towards dismissive or preoccupied? Or is that totally separate?
Okay, so the answer to your first question, what would I tell them? Well, I do offer a plan where you play pay today's rates for the child's therapy and 20 years, it's kind of like buying a funeral, prolong. I'm kidding, I'm sorry. Now, here's what I would say. There's no such thing as a perfect parent. And literally, literally in the textbooks like, like I teach human growth and development, we get get into human child psychology and all this kind of stuff at the grad school, where I teach, and literally the text, book term is good enough parenting. Good enough, wow, yeah. Good enough, that is literally the academic clinical term. And what is good enough parenting, that you just repair the ruptures more often than you don't? Right. That's it. That's it. That's it. So just don't lose sight of the reality that ruptures are actually required for the development of the security. Okay, of course, we don't want to intentionally create ruptures, you know, they're gonna happen, because this world is crazy. And you know, whatever. But when you notice a rupture, you just repair it, that like, and if you do that, more often than not, that's good enough. Okay. So that's the first thing I would say. Now, here's the flip side of that. Your second question. The number one determining factor of a, of the attachment style that someone develops is the attachment styles of the parents. It's almost well, I shouldn't say almost it is, in fact, handed down. Now, that's not 100% of the time, that is not the case. Because you could have, I mean, there's stories out there of kids who had parents who were Boston addiction, and all this kind of stuff, and just crazy trauma and all this, but they had like a coach, right? Who just really took an interest in them, or a Sunday school teacher, or they or their grand mother was this secure attachment figure, the presence of one secure attachment figure can be life changing in terms of the directory of development. So so it's not a one to one, it's not 100%. But the research is definitely clear that by and large attachment styles get passed down from one generation to the next.
Okay. Very helpful. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So, let's, let's jump into addiction a little bit. How does this play into the picture when we're talking about, you know, whether it's, I mean, for our scope, it's typically sex or porn addiction, about I don't know if this goes even beyond that. But how does it factor in?
Yeah, so there's lots of research out there showing correlation between insecure attachment styles and addiction. I have worked with addicts who are securely attached. So it's not a guarantee by any means. But, but it's certainly. So there's certainly something going on. And here's, here's what we think it is. So if you think about what addiction really is, like, how does it function because it's doing something there's a reason addicts are addicted, right. And the the easiest way I know to explain it, is that with addiction, I'm using something on the outside, be that a substance of behavior, right? Whatever, something on the outside, to try to change the way I feel on the inside. Now, why would I need to do that? Well, I would need to do that because I don't have the capacity to change what I'm feeling on the inside in a healthy way. And where does that capacity come from? secure attachment. Okay, so that's what it goes back to. So probably about 10 years ago, we started hearing things like, you know, sobriety is not the opposite of addiction. In connection is the opposite of addiction. And that's, that's what they're basing that on that the addiction is not the root problem, it is the symptom of a deeper problem. And that deeper problem is typically a lack of what, here's the the, you know, clunky clinical term effect regulation, it's a capacity. So to to regulate my aspect a FF e c t, which is sort of that felt sense in the body, this the background of our emotions, and all that kind of stuff.
Okay, so So somebody is experiencing something uncomfortable within, and the only way they know how to manage it because of their attachment style, is by external means. And then naturally, I mean, it's not not too hard to get addicted in our society. And fortunately, there's lots of convenient options, right? How does this factor in to the, let's say, the prolonging of it, because I can imagine they would start that way. But then as an addiction continues, like, is it now just the the neurobiology that's taken over? They're just hooked to it? They're gonna keep seeking the hit? Or is attachment theory still at play feeling even later on?
That's another great question. So it's a little bit of both, actually. So there is sort of this feedback loop of the addictive cycle neurobiologically, where, where I'm building a tolerance to the things, so I need more and more, I need higher levels in order to achieve the same high and, and my body actually comes to expect a certain level of these chemical releases, and whether that's coming through ingesting a chemical or performing some behavior. And my body is expecting that it's using that for homeostasis. And here's what's really interesting in the end, and this is often nonconscious, even to the attic, is that once an addiction is really progressed, you're no longer really even seeking a high. And and a lot of the addicts I work with, they say this, it wasn't even pleasurable anymore. So they're not seeking the high, they're trying to outrun the withdrawal. Okay. So, so in that way, it's almost like the addiction sort of takes off, it was rooted in this attachment thing, problem, but then it takes on this life of its own. However, it is more complicated than that. Because you got to think of it like a smaller cycle inserted inside of a larger cycle. So that's the smaller cycle. The larger cycle, though, is, when people are active in addiction, what effect is it tend to have on their relationships? It's not good, right? And so what they end up experiencing in their relationships, true or not, their perception of it is read through their early attachment experiences. And it begins to reinforce the insecure attachment messages from childhood.
Okay, so they so you, you have the insecure attachment in childhood. A couple of things obviously happened in between, but the the addiction develops, the addiction kind of becomes a magnifier for the same dynamic in the relationships again, and it's perpetuating the cycle. It really
recreates it. So let's, let's make it real. Okay, let's put some skin on it. So let's say you've got an addict, who probably maybe leans more toward the dismissive. So in other words, no one really knows me loves me, if they really see me, they wouldn't love me, you know, that kind of a nonconscious mindset, all right, and they're acting out in addiction. And as they do, let's say they just keep losing friends, people don't want to be with them a series of romantic relationships. And well, they interpret that through the message, right? And so, and so it's reinforcing those old scripts from childhood.
Yep, that makes a lot of sense. So what does somebody do when they're in this place? And they know they want to change? How does working through your attachment stuff, factor into somebody's recovery process?
I think it's, I think it's essential, you know, and actually, if you look at those historic programs that work, you know, like the 12 step programs, right? Millions and millions of people found sobriety and recovery through 12 steps. So the only way but, but they've done studies, why did the 12 steps work? Well, it doesn't work to just go to a meeting. Doesn't work to just check a box. You have to get into the program and what is the program actually is Time to do. I asked this all the time, when I'm speaking to big groups who don't know much about addiction. How many times in the 12 steps is addiction actually mentioned? Once? The beginning, right, step one, yeah. All the rest is relational. My relationship to God, my relationship to myself, and my own sense of integrity, and my relationship to other people. Now, isn't that interesting? Yeah. Huh. Right. Yeah. And, and so whether it's 12 steps or some other group program, that community element is so essential, because it's inside that community, that we start to have those old scripts about relationships challenged? Oh, wait, you mean, I can tell the truth and be safe? Oh, you mean, I can show my imperfections? And they won't leave me? Oh, what is right, so it's challenging the scripts that are the foundation of those insecure attachment patterns. And I'm beginning to get what's called earned secure attachment. Okay, okay. I'm earning it. And I actually, I mean, I like that term on the one hand, but in another way I don't, because I can't merely earn it, it has to be given to me. Right? Just like that infant is dependent on the external nervous system to regulate itself. Early in my I'm in recovery, okay. So early in my own recovery, I was dependent on these people outside of me, to help me regulate to get me through a trigger to get me through the urge to act out. To help me work through some, you know, the end of a relationship. I wasn't married when I got into recovery. So I was, you know, a dating relationship, the end of that relationship helped me get through the emotion of that without acting out, I needed those other people, it had to be given to me.
Wow, okay. That's really powerful. Because I think it's what it's what keeps people in addiction for such a long time is their choice to do it alone. The fear of reaching out and everything else. And it sounds like to tie this into the neurobiology of it again, like what might have actually sourced it in the first place, which is the insecure attachment, the inability to experience that security and internalize it properly, that can still be acquired later on in life.
Absolutely. That is, that is the good news of neuroplasticity, that our brains change all through life. And we're not doomed to be, you know, stuck in one way of being at all. Yeah,
that makes sense. I mean, I'm thinking of a guy in our community. He's, he's about 70. And, you know, addicted to porn for five decades, tons of affairs. And, and when he was going through one of our modules, you start to open up, you know, because he was, he was like, oh, vulnerability, I didn't know I had to let people in like, just had no idea. And he was starting to share with his mom and his wife and his mother in law, and like, he just like, went for it, and was feeling like all kinds of liberation. And, you know, he hasn't looked at porn. And I think it's almost two years now. He's, it's been amazing what's happening with him. But, but it just goes to show you the power of that that urn secure attachment that you're talking about, that I think I hope people listen this far into the interview, because it'd be easy to write yourself off and be like, Oh, I didn't have the perfect childhood or whatever. This is just the way it is. Can we get even just a little bit more practical? What what does it look like? Like plugging into a community? What other other ways can people earn secure attachment? So to speak in their lives?
Yeah. So number one is tell the truth. You, you absolutely will not earn secure attachment. If you're living a lie. Wow. You can't do it. Because you know, you're lying, even if it's way deep, deep down there. And so you're walking around always wondering, what if they knew this? What if they knew this? Right? So, so the guy that says, I'll tell my wife, everything I've done, except that one thing? It will always keep you from having as much security as you could? Because you'll always wonder what would happen if she knew that one thing? So and look, I'm not I'm not saying like every graphic gordita and I'm not I'm not saying that you know, which is where you need to get get some wise counsel, you know, and train helping this stuff but, but you got to be truthful, you got to be honest, if you're not being honest, you will not get to secure attachment. That is number one. Number two is in recovery. There's a there's a phrase that that's real popular Do the next right thing, right? Do the next right thing? Well, I've got an expanded version of that. Do the next, right, riskiest, relational thing repetitively and make it a rhythm in your life. Okay, every single one of those is actually based on the science of neuroplasticity and maximize his brain change. So not just the next right thing, but the next riskiest thing. And here's what I mean by that. Not stupid risk, not the kind of it's good. We're lost in addiction, not that. But let's say let's say I need to own something I've done wrong. Okay, let's say I've, I really blew it with my wife this morning. Which, which feels riskier, shooting her a text, or calling her on the phone?
Yeah, that phone call every time that phone call.
But doing the phone call, is going to change my brain more powerfully than the text will write, okay? Because the emotion and facing the emotion of the riskiness of that actually amplifies the plasticity, the effect, okay, of that change? The next right, risky is relational. So do it in relational context, can I call a buddy and processes first? Can I can I do it face to face eyeball to eyeball that night with my wife? How do I make it relational, because relational experiences are going to change the brain more, and then also doing it repeatedly in in rhythm. So do it over and over every time, but create a rhythm of it to write of these things. All of that is going to maximize brain change.
Okay, makes a lot of sense. We have a saint in our community, he who is most vulnerable heals the quickest. And I liked that you had the risky part in there, because I think that's kind of what you're hitting on, isn't it? Absolutely. It's gonna cost you something a little bit, right.
Yeah. Yeah, it's, and that goes back to the neurobiology piece, like your brain. One of the functions of emotion is it says, This is important. This matters. Okay? Why is your brain going to do the work of cementing neural new neural pathways that don't matter? So you've got to make it feel like it matters. Okay. That's why the risk of the vulnerability right is so important.
Yeah. And it's funny, because I don't think it actually takes that much work for us to identify what these things are. I think the real work is actually convincing ourselves to do it, do it. Yeah. So what would you say to somebody who is like, okay, Jake, you got me, you know, like, I know what some of these things are, I should be doing, but I just, you know, I just can't I'm too scared or it's too inconvenient, or one of my life changes, you know, we have all these different reasons. How do you talk somebody off that ledge?
Okay. I love that. You ask the question that way about the ledge because this always makes me think of this scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Okay. So that's the one with Sean Connery where Sean Connery is his dad, right? And they're going for the Holy Grail. And toward the end of the movie, his dad's been shot. All right. And he's on and he in, he's got the dad's journal, and he's almost to the grill. And there's these final three tests. And the very last one is called the leap of faith. Do you remember this in the movie you'd like walks up to this ledge now in the 90s. These computer graphics were like, the coolest thing blew my mind. Yeah. So that's why I remember it to this day. So so there's Indiana Jones, and he's standing at the legends the leap of faith and, and he's like, No one can jump this. No one could say this is impossible to jump. And he finally realizes, like, he's just got to step out. Right. And there's this scene is beautiful camerawork, it's actually on YouTube, people can look it up and just watch this scene. Indiana Jones leap of faith, and you and he, he takes a step and there's this small little, little drop, but then you hear his foot hit something. And then the camera zooms out and swinging to the side and there's this ledge, there's this walkway, that looking at it dead on it looked like it blended into the other side of the of the canyon, but from the side, you could see it was this ledge going in the other side. That's what we're talking about doing here. You think you're gonna fall into this abyss, this bottomless pit? But I'm telling you that when you take a step that is based on your values, you will not fall into a bottomless pit. It will it's gonna feel like it for a second. Yeah, there could be cost to it. Yeah, but you are not going to fall into a bottomless pit. Wow. And, and that's just the only way to know that is by doing it. And so you you do it one step at a time. Yeah. And here's here's one last piece of encouragement around that, I would say is that, you know, the alternative is that we use dysfunctional defense mechanisms like those are really our only two choices. You either move forward in your in you take ownership of your own development of who you are and want to be, or you use old regressive defense mechanisms that keep you stuck in the past, there is no third option. And every single choice I make sets me on a developmental trajectory to being and becoming the person I'm being and becoming.
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Man, that's really well said, worth the interview for that little segment. That's really helpful. Thanks. Okay, so here's the question. So. So we're talking about how earn secure attachment is sort of the way forward, you know, once you've reached the spot, you have an understanding, you want to get to a place where you're healthy. So I can see how you know, community, having professional help. These are ways where you're going to really gain secured attachment by relating to others. Can you talk a little bit about how you would earn secure attachment in your relationship with God? And then your relationship with self as well?
Absolutely. Good questions. So what would happen if we treated God like a real human? Because he did become one. And Jesus remains incarnated today? I mean, he's still in a human body today. Right? And I think I think we need to remember that. And and how do I, how, how do I build a relationship with any human? Well, I've got to spend time with them. I've got to be honest with them. So am I really being honest in my prayers? Am I really, okay, there's a difference between spending time with someone just because I want to know what they know. And spending time with him because I want to know them. So why am I reading the Bible? What am i What's my attitude? Do I just do I geek out to theology, which is my temptation. And there's going to be the temptation of someone with a more dismissive attachment style, or am I seeking the person here. And so my mindset is gonna, gonna take a lot. And then there's one more really important way that I'm going to mention is through through the community of faith, because that is the body of Christ. And I truly believe that there's going to be most of the time that there, there are certain traumas that could affect this certain experiences that could affect this, but most of the time, your attachment style with the church will mirror your attachment style with God, and vice versa. Wow. Fascinating. Okay, if I'm being real, with my kimete, my faith community, I'm probably being real with God. Dang. And vice versa.
Yeah. Okay. Very sad. Yeah, really awful.
Now attachment to yourself is, oh, man, that could be a whole, a whole episode. But, but but, again, we got to start with honesty. Am I honest with myself? Do I spend time with myself? So mindfulness, self reflection? Do I? Do I nurture myself? Because that's a part of it? Right? Do I nurture myself in? And I'm not talking about just, you know, like in a discipline, you know, get out there run your two mile, whatever? No. Am I warm? Do I take a moment and take a little self compassion break? Yeah. Do I show an interest in myself as I would someone else and this is so I've preached whole sermons on this, like, the Bible doesn't say love your neighbor more than yourself. Right? As yourself. Philippians two says, Look, not only to your own interest, but also to the interest of others. There's a there's a there's an assumption that we look to our own interest. So am I learning about myself learning my own tells learning to know what this or that signal means about me? Right? So those are are some was self reflection things I need to be doing to, to do that work. And one more thing that just popped in my head, I'm a believer in inner child work. There's a lot of ways to do that. Yes, you know, but those are parts of me that I need to attach to and nurture. And so doing that inner child work is another part of secure attachment with self so that I come to trust those parts of me, that teenage part of me that young child, part of me trust the functional adult part of me to drive the bus.
Yeah, yeah, good. Okay, really, really helpful. So I'm imagining, maybe somebody's hearing this, and they're going, Okay, I know, I have some things to work on. This is affecting my relationships, but it's also causing addiction. Where does somebody start? I know you, you're doing intensives with couples quite a bit, maybe you can give us an idea of what does that look like if somebody's getting started on this journey here?
Yeah, so first of all, you got to get in community, right? You run a community, there are good communities out there. You've got to find people who are trustworthy, who are Grace based, who, who, who have what you want. You know, that's not a, that's not a selfish thing to be looking for. Look for people who have what you want, and you gotta get in there. That's like an immediate thing you can do. And there's just, there are too many resources out there for someone to not do that. Okay. That's, that's first of all, the second. Yeah, like I do, I do work with couples. intensives, where maybe, maybe your partner is just found out about your addiction, it's been hidden for years, and you want to be able to rebuild trust. And I walked them through, what does that look like? How do we do that? How do you do a disclosure at the Edit appropriate level? You know, how do you do it in a trustworthy way? And then now, what do we do to start rebuilding trust, post truth, you know, in a new world with truth, not post truth is an after truth after getting the truth, you know, so I do those, and I have a team of folks who do those. And so there's that. But ask for help. I mean, I don't know, I guess it just boils down to that, like, reach out and ask for help at people email me. And any one listening can email me directly, Jake, at daring ventures.com. And I will help you find help. Like, it doesn't have to be me. I know, I'm not the magic bullet. So if I can help you find local support, you know, our team will help you do that. Just ask Yeah,
well, that's really kind. And it's interesting. I listened to a podcast called, What's it say? I think it's psychiatry and psychotherapy by Dr. David pewter, I don't know if you're familiar with it. But he broke down a fascinating study where they, they were just trying to try and identify what's like the most, I just the greatest indicator that a client therapist relationship would be effective. And it there was basically like, you know, they had modalities and they looked at location and demographics, and age differences and all that kind of stuff, religious beliefs. And it was really simple. It was just does the client trust the therapist. And as long as the trust was there, the outcome was pretty much predictable, regardless of the modality and everything else. And I think that actually ties in everything we just talked about with attachment style, right? Like, does it not make sense? If you're gonna say yes, relationship, relational environment, everything else is going to come together, and you're gonna get the help you need. So couldn't agree more. You have a YouTube channel, you have some webinars? What are some places where people can plug in and, and maybe find out more about what you're up to Jake? Sure. So
I do have a YouTube channel. I'm sure we could put the link in the show notes. For sure. Yeah. Because I don't honestly even remember what it is, but what the URL is, but there's tons of videos on there. Tons and tons and tons of videos on there, that get into the all of this attachment stuff and the neuroscience stuff and the recovery, all of that it's all there. So I would say that's a great free resource. Now most of those clips come from longer webinars that people can purchase if they go to go geo dot daring ventures at home all written out.com Go dot daring [email protected] And you can browse the resource library, you just click Browse resource library, and you can see tons of webinars that I've done and and read descriptions of those. I've got a couple that people may be interested in based on this particular episode we just did is I've got one called the store where you have attachment. And I go further into the history and the development and all the neuroscience of it. So the story of attachment, and then I've got one called the theology of attachment. And it goes through the creation story and all of that, and just kind of ties together the biblical narrative of creation, with what we see in attachment.
That sounds amazing. Dude, I got to have you back. This is like, you got so much.
Oh, let's do it. I'm ready. Okay. Well, thank
you again, for this. This was amazing. We'll put links to all that in the show notes. And I just appreciate your time today, Jay, thank you,
hey, thank you for having me. It's been great.
So there you go, guys, kind of like a not like super flashy in your face kind of thing. Very laid back interview, very, you know, almost unassuming information. But I'm telling you, if you internalize this, if you really grasp what we just discussed, this could really change your life, I want to recommend that you go check out all the resources he listed. But he was really kind enough to actually offer me a little discount code afterwards, which is unleashed. So if you use the word Unleashed for the theology of attachment webinar, you can actually get 50% off and I'd love for you to get your hands on that. The other thing is he has a YouTube channel. So we put a link to that in the show notes as well. And he also provided his email if you want to reach out to him directly. So lots of ways for you to get help. And look, if you are looking to further the addiction recovery journey. And you want to just take maybe one more step, maybe two more steps, maybe you want to take a few big steps into that place of recovery. The best place for you to do that is to get your copy of my book, The Last relapse, it is available free to you at the last relapse book.com. And this literally details my system that I walk all my clients through from A to Z when they want to recover for porn long term. So the last relapse book.com You get your free copy there, my gift to you. In the meantime, guys, thanks for listening. Have an amazing day. We'll talk soon. Bye. Everybody, it's the Theo again. Thanks for listening to unleash the man with him. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about a free ebook that I wrote for you called The Ultimate Guide to porn recovery. It provides a basic framework for the recovery process, and a few of my top tips completely free of charge. You can get it now at www dot ultimate recovery guide.com. That's www ultimate recovery guide.com. Now if you've been impacted by the podcast, and you want to show some support in less than 60 seconds, there are three ways you can do that. First, you can leave a rating or review on your podcast platform. This lets people like you know that the content here is valuable. Secondly, you can share this episode with someone in your life that might benefit from the content. If you're passionate about helping other people experience freedom and success in their lives. This is one of the easiest ways to do that. And lastly, you can subscribe. I personally only listen to the podcasts that I subscribe to. If you're seeking daily encouragement, guidance and insight in your recovery journey. I highly recommend subscribing to unleash the man within. Thanks for listening. I look forward to connecting with you very very soon.
The information opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast by Sathiya Sam and his guests are for general information only and should not be considered medical, clinical or any other form of professional advice. Any reliance on the information provided is done at your own risk.
