What's up everybody? It's Sathiya Sam here, welcome to unleash the man within thank you guys so much for listening. Today I'm sitting down with Larry hegner, founder of the dad edge. And this guy's man, this guy's amazing. He's got a legendary podcast, he's created tons of courses and resources over the years. And he's one of those guys who is not like, he's not the world's leading expert in you know, blah, blah, blah, because he's super research and academic. This is just a very humble man who had a really difficult upbringing, like really poor fathers and absent fathers and we get into that in the store in his story, and really just wants to be better and didn't know how to do it. And so he started resources are started creating resources like podcasts and those kinds of things, trying to learn, trying to hear from people who are further ahead of him. And in the process, lo and behold, this guy has created a mega movement. And so you're going to learn a ton from him today. What I really like about Larry, and the reason I think you guys are gonna like him too, is he really has a gift for keeping people psychologically safe. And we get into some, like really practical, tactical kinds of things. For you know, questions, you can ask your kids how to how to have a good conversation with your wife. And it's not just like some of the stuff that we've heard on this podcast before. Like, the when you I feel statements or like, here's a great way to have like an awesome date. Like this guy goes deep man. And he's got a really different way of thinking about things. He's been able to even articulate certain concepts that I've always thought about, but I've never really had the language for it. So I learned a lot. I literally took notes the entire time. And I know that you guys are gonna learn a lot from him as well. And so I'm super excited to share this interview with you. I don't think I have anything else to mention before we jump in other than this, be open minded. The one thing I'll say is like with an interview like this, it's one thing to take in the information. And to be like, Yeah, that's a cool idea. What I'd love for you guys to do in your open mindedness is just imagine yourself applying some of the things he teaches you, I actually got into a disagreement with my wife, like three hours after this interview. And because of what there was one thing in particular, he said, where he just talked about the power of, of like really keeping your nervous system calm. These are my words now, but keeping your nervous system calm, in a heated moment, not defending yourself, and really making an effort to understand the other person. But he gave a really tactical element that I will let you find out in the interview that I applied. And man, it was so helpful. And I was just grateful for the timing. And it just that quick application really helped me reinforce it. And now I'm able to do it a little bit more regularly. And so I pray the same for you guys. Don't just take in the information, really think about how you can apply it, and then obviously go out there and do the work. Anyway, without further ado, let's jump in. Here's my interview with Larry hegner. So here's the million dollar question. How are men like us who work hard, have good motives and a God given purpose supposed to fulfill the calling on our lives and the dreams in our hearts? All while establishing sexual integrity, thriving relationships and a meaningful connection with God? That is the question. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Sathiya Sam, welcome to unleash the man with them.
All right, well, I'm here with Larry hegner, founder of dad edge and host of the dads podcast. Larry, it's a real treat to have you here, man.
What's going on, man? It's so it's so cool to be on this show. Obviously, I heard you originally on our good buddy. Ryan McClure order, man. Yeah. And I love the topic that you discussed on that particular podcast. So I'm excited to be here, man.
Yeah, so let's jump into it. You have founded this movement called the dad edge. And I guess I'm just curious, why are you so passionate about serving dads? How did this all come about?
Man, I I make this joke every now and again that you know one day I 10 years ago, I woke up and the sun was shining. I looked out the window and I had this epiphany of you know what it meant to be a good father and husband I just had to share it with the world. And you know, I had one guy actually think like, wow, really? I'm like, No, not at all. It was actually pretty disastrous. You know, I I'm happy to go into any type of detail you want because the story is every time I tell the story is pretty unique. You know, people you see the eyebrows get raised. But basically my childhood was spent half of it was spent without a father figure in my life. And the other half was spent with a usually some sort of toxic, abusive father figure. My mom was married three times. There was a revolving door of just toxic men who just were in and out. She you know, every guy that she was married to it only would only last a handful of years. Every guy that she dated. It was like the same guy. Same type of guy. Just different names, different faiths that was always in. That was my experience growing up. And again, I'm happy to dive into the details. But my mom was actually married young, she got married at 21. My dad, my biological father was 21 as well. They had me when they were about 25. After that my they got divorced, he left. And I didn't know him at all. And I ran into him. I mistakenly, when I was 12, we had a very brief six month relationship, he was remarried at the time materials on another one on the way. And six months went by we had a good relationship. And then he just basically said, hey, it's it's me, it's not you. And this is too much for me right now. And we need to go our separate ways when we did and then that was gut wrenching. And then, you know, again, 30,000 foot view is when I was 30, I was in a Starbucks for a meeting, I was in medical device sales at a time. And I had a standing sales meeting with my team every Monday at the Starbucks, and who came walking in for their morning coffee, but my father, and I hadn't seen him since I was 12. And we reunited unexpectedly in that Starbucks, and I've had a relationship with them now ever since I was 17 years ago. Wow. For boys, and I would say dad, Ed really got started because, dude, I had no idea what to do as a father. And I wouldn't say that I was falling flat on my face, because I had a laundry list of things that I knew not to do. So I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna throw beer bottles at my kids. I'm not gonna call them names. I'm not going to slap them in the face. I'm not going to strangle them thrown down all these things that were kind of done to me growing up. Yeah, but I had no idea what what good really looks like. And dad edge really got started because I always swore I always made promises to myself, because I knew what it felt like growing up with, with all that chaos. I was like, my kids are gonna know who their dad is for sure. I want to connection with my kids, I want to connection with my wife. I only want to be married once and I will never hit my kids out of anger. And I broke that last rule. When my 14 year old was four, four year old he stepped out of line. I spanked him. And then he hit the ground. And I didn't hit him all that hard. But I hit him hard enough to where you know, four year old lost his balance. And when I saw him topple over, I was like, Oh my God, what did I just do? And I went to go pick him up. And he looked at me like I was a monster, which I was in that moment. I was. Yeah. And that was it for me. I was like, I've got to get this straightened out. And if I don't, everything that I hold dear in my life will probably go away.
Wow. Dude, that's powerful. And so you you started Dad's not as like, the expert dad coming in. It sounds like you were just hoping to maybe glean some advice from some other guys. Were willing to talk about it with you.
I'm still not. Yeah. You know, I here's the thing. I know a thing or two now. I mean, I've got an arsenal of tools, right. But I still fall flat on my face every single day. I obviously not to the extreme that I was. Yeah, yeah, the podcast that I started the blog in 2013. And it was just like, I'm an idiot. I'm a moron. And here's a few things that I've learned here recently. That was like the blog. And then the podcast was, I'm an idiot, I'm a moron. Let me have conversations with experts who are way smarter than me. The whole premise of the podcast and it still is to this day. It is a front row seat to an incredible education that has probably saved my marriage. It's saved my kids and it has saved my life. And the audience. We all we all just get to learn together. The only differences is I'm the one who's asking the questions. That's yeah, that's,
that's really cool. So okay, I did want to ask that one question you had mentioned about your childhood or kind of the upbringing. What do you think had a bigger impact on you? Do you think it was the absence of your biological father, or the presence of abusive father figures?
Gosh, what a one incredible question. I don't know if I've ever been asked that. I would say actually, both equally. Okay. Because, I mean, if I'm, if I'm speaking very real to you, right, like, I will tell you going through, you know, an environment of unsafety and unpredictability. People are drunk, constantly, you know, mom and father figure, you know, that that was all the time that was walking through that was felt really unsafe at the time, and it was just like, walking on eggshells and broken glass at all times. Looking back on it, though, you know, I'm just like, my kids. You know, my kids will I don't openly discuss things like I don't just openly share stuff, but when they asked me I tell them, yeah, I have my two older boys. They'll be like, I feel so sorry for you. I'm like don't like I feel sorry for me. I was like, I don't feel sorry for me. Don't feel sorry for me. I was like you asked, I told you. I was like, I'm thankful for my upbringing, and they're like, why now? So because it taught me, it taught me a lot. And it taught me to have really thick skin. And it taught me of what I didn't want to be or do. I was like, and I kind of thank God for that upbringing in a way because I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing today. But that's that's the first half. The second half is. I had this really fascinating question come from my 14 year old. And he'll be 15 here next week. And he, he just asked this last week. So this is like fresh off the books. Okay, my 14 year old we call him the observant ninja, and that's because he sees and he hears all but he'll never let you know, he's very, he watches everything. Cuz he's very attune. And he, you know, he'll ask like some really deep questions every now and again. You're like, wow, this kids really paying attention. So he, we were going over to my dad's house to hang out with him for Christmas, him and his wife. He's been married. Like I said, the same woman now for the past 40 years. She's great. I have two younger half brothers great relationships there. Oh, cool. And my son asked me, he's like, Hey, what are we going over to grandpa paws on on Sunday? I said, Yeah, we are. He goes. Do you like going over there? And then like, and of course, I was like, Yeah, I was like I do. I was like, I especially like it when Papa was in a good mood. And when he's not at feel, you know, it's, it's a little, you know, it's a little fiery. I was like, but other than that, I was like, Hey, I like it. I was like, Why do you ask that question? He's like, I don't know. He's like, I've been thinking a lot. He goes, he left you. Not once, but twice. He's like, how do you enjoy being around him? And I'm like, he's never asked that. And I was like, wow, I was like, let me I was like, Where does this question come from? He's like, I don't know. I just been thinking he's like, if you left me, I don't think I'd be able to forgive you. I was like, it's fair. Yeah, I was like, You know what, when I was 14, I felt the same way. Yeah, I was like, but what I will tell you is that, do I think about it every time I'm over there, and I'm around him. Yep. I do. Right. I was like, and there's a part of me is like, how, why? I would never, there's nothing in this world that would keep me from my kids. Nothing. Yeah. And I told them that, and I was like, but you know, my dad made those decisions. And I told I told my son this. I was like, actually feel sorry for my dad. And he's like, why? I was like, I know my dad regrets those decisions. I know, he does. He's told me. And we've, we've only had one conversation about it. But I know it has eaten him alive. Now. It's like, That man has to live with that for the rest of his life. And I feel sorry for him, because he will never be able to let that go. Right. I was like, so I pity him. I love them. And I choose to forgive them. And that's just the way it rolls. Right. So I'll tell you the abandonment thing. You know, it hits you. And it still hits you as an adult. But I don't know if one is worse or better than the other, if that makes any sense.
Oh, makes perfect sense. Yeah. And it's a cheeky question, obviously to ask, but I was I was curious. To answer that. Yeah. Okay, one other question. So, I've been talking about this with some of my friends lately, which is, so I don't have kids yet. And we we're of the generation that is, you know, realizing like how real trauma is. We all have trauma. You know, some people obviously, it's more notable than others. But we're very aware that like, parent relationships, they're not make or break, but they're just so impactful on the person you become. And I think, at least in my friend group, I won't speak for my generation at large. In my friend group, it's creating a lot of scared potential parents who are like, who feel like, no matter what they do, they know they're gonna mess up their kid. And there's like, a lot of anxiety around it. Right. So we were just talking about about this recently. And I guess, what intrigues me about your story is, is that I think you did what a lot of us do we get, you know, mum, mum or dad does this thing that kind of pisses us off as kids and we say, I'm never going to do that. I'm never gonna be that parent. Right? And like, I mean, I even did this with my dad was a pastor. And I saw kind of the lifestyle that came with being a pastor. And I was like, Yeah, I'm never doing that. And then I wound up being a pastor for 10 years. And I don't I'm not a pastor what I do now, but it's very much pastoral, still the the nature of my work. And God, I think, just has a funny way of working those things out in our lives. But I guess I'm curious for you, what do you attribute the most to reaching this place in your life now where it's very clear that you are not repeating the sins of your father quote, unquote, you're you've really changed the trajectory, which I think everybody longs to do, especially if they have a storied past like you do, but not everybody's necessarily as successful and pulling it off. What what do you think was the most? I think the biggest contributor to that.
I think the biggest contributor the biggest contributor, I would say the launching pad, was seeing this frightened four year olds. face when I went to go help him up, because I say this a lot, and I say to speaking events, I didn't see my son in that moment I saw me. And I remember that feeling of someone who is bigger than you, hitting you, and how helpless it felt. And that was like that was the launching pad for this whole thing. Yeah, but I will tell you, you know, the things that keep me grounded in all of this is I've learned so many powerful lessons and skills doing the podcast and doing doing research. And the books that I've read and experts that we've we've spoken to and conferences I've been to. And what I will tell you is that I love to live by quotes, like quotes hit me in the heart big time, especially powerful ones. My favorite quote of all time is the definition of Hell is meeting the man that you could have become when you're on your deathbed. That one hits me so hard. And what I will tell you is that I am a imperfect, unfinished man who makes mistakes every single day, I apologize to my kids, probably more than most. And that's because I'm an idiot, sometimes, right? And, but what I will tell you is that there's some beautiful things that come out of being, you know, not the perfect father, right? Because I think a lot of men really feel like this pressure cooker. Of like, I've got to do this without mistakes. And when when we have when we when we enter into fatherhood or even marriage like that, we are setting ourselves up for absolute disaster. Because it's really our ego that's in the driver's seat. When it comes to that. It's like, I can't do this, I can't make mistakes. And if I make mistakes, well, then I just have to say, I'm the dad, you're the kid, you know, do as is do, as I say not as I do, right, or something like that. That's how I was raised as well. Yeah, but what I will tell you is, there's some incredible lessons. And maybe I'll just share this one real quick story here. This was about six months ago, my 14 year old again, my 14 year old, he, he all my kids, like I have four boys. So my house like a lot of times looks like a fraternity house. And one thing that gets under my skin is when people leave their dishes and their trash and their clutter it because for me the filter, I run that through this is not my this is not my kids doing this, to me. It's the filter, I run it through it. Because you know, I know that this is what's happening. So when I see dishes and popcorn bags, and trash and empty bottles, you know, on the floor, my my filter tells me how disrespectful Are you being you're being so inconsiderate, you're not picking up after yourself, you think that somebody is going to come in behind you and clean this up. And that's lazy, right? But in actuality, what really happened is my kids just forgot it's not on their radar, right? But I need to teach them that. And I remember about six months ago, I really I really fired into my 14 year old because he I have to remind them of that. And there was trash all over. And I was just like, dude, how I was doing the typical dad thing like, dude, how many times I gotta tell you to do this, like, I don't understand what it's gonna take to get this through your head, that you I just simply pick up after yourself, stop leaving your stuff. And I just was going on and he just sat there. And he just took it all. And I didn't say anything abusive or cussing at him or anything like that. But I was stern. And he looked at me and he goes, I get that. And I apologize, but you don't have to yell at me. And I don't really yell at my kids very often. But when I'm when I'm when I get super angry I do every now and again. It doesn't happen often. But it does happen. Yeah. And then my ego popped in, right? And I said, Well, if you picked up after yourself, I wouldn't have to yell. And as soon as I said that, I was like that is such BS, like that's what I was told, right? And then I ended up walking away from the conversation. And I just remember being like, that was the moment that my 14 year old became older than me, dear Lord, like what is it? What just happened? Right? So I went back downstairs and I said, Can we talk? And he said, Yeah, I said, I'm sorry. I'm very sorry, I shouldn't you're a human being you're young man. I shouldn't have spoken to you like that. I was like in your right. I don't have to yell at you. Yeah, I was like, can we make an agreement here though? Can we make an agreement that you will be better? Right about picking up after yourself? He goes, Well, I have been better. I was like, actually, you have you've been really a lot better. And I was like, what would it look like? If you had one reminder, I ask very gently, and you hop to it and you do it. And he's like, I'm on board with that. I was like, great. I was like, Mason, let me tell you something. I was like, you know how you're trying to figure out how to be 14 and a freshman in high school and the freshman football team and girls and friends and all this other stuff and everything just seems like kind of a mystery. He's like, Yeah, I was like, I'm still trying to figure out how to be 46 and a father of four. And some days I get it right. And some days I fall flat on my face, and today I fell on my face. I was like I'm sorry, I spoke to you that way. And he's like, that's okay. And so what I think is really cool is that, to answer your question, going back to it, is I think when we lead with the attitude of I'm an unfinished, imperfect husband and father, I'm going to make mistakes. But I'm also going to teach my kids as I make these mistakes, what good looks like what humility looks like? What what being Extreme Ownership looks like what apologies look like? Because that's one of the most beautiful lessons that we can teach. No, no man, and our kids actually give us more credibility. When we're like that versus less. And I think what most men feel like, well, if I say these things out loud that I did wrong, everyone's gonna know. And everyone's gonna think poorly of me. I'm like, dude, everyone does know already. And they think poorly, because you don't own it, because they think you're unaware.
Yeah, yeah, that's a really powerful story. So how did you learn to prioritize? Because what I'm hearing from that story is like, somehow you have learned to prioritize the relationship over, you know, over the behavior. And I to finish my story, like, when my friends and I were talking about this of like, oh, yeah, but I'm just so scared. Like, what am I going to do? When I mess up? My kids? I know, I'm going to be imperfect. What am I going to do? And one of my, I think it may be as a colleague, I actually don't remember who specifically taught me this. But But I had, I had asked this question one time, and somebody that I trust had told me, it's just about rupture and repair, like, you're gonna, you're gonna cause ruptures. But where you actually changed the trajectory is in the repair part. And that story you gave is a perfect example of that. I don't You got any words of wisdom for somebody who maybe is like, Man, I'm causing a lot of ruptures in my relationships, whether it's with kids or otherwise? Any any words of wisdom on how to do that repair part? Well, because that's, that's a really beautiful example, man.
Thank you, I appreciate that. So I'll give you a couple of different things. So I'll give you a process on the repair. But also give you a process on the proactivity of preventing those from happening more. Yes, yes. I will say this, you know, I look back on my life 10 years ago, before I started that edge, and my batting average was not great. It was probably like 300, right? Every time I had an interaction, my kids, I was hitting 300, like three out of 10 interactions were pretty good. Now it's the opposite. It's more like seven 800. Right. So I still follow my face. Yeah, well, it's I have better interactions more frequently. So let me get to that in a second. But, but here's what I'll tell you. And again, I can I can produce this in a story. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. The father and a husband that does not make mistakes, you're checked out. You're you're you're you're distancing yourself, you might be numbing yourself, you might be like sitting on the couch that got the guy that doesn't make mistakes, is the guy that isn't doing anything and not showing up. So get your hands dirty. Like another way to say this is think of the last football game that you saw, right? And think of maybe it's Tom Brady, or whatever else, right? Tom Brady is the one who's out there, he's making the plays happen. He's also the one making mistakes, you know, who isn't making mistakes, his second string quarterback on the bench, right? Right there, right. So making mistakes, it's a good sign your human being and you're engaged. So there's that. What I will tell you though, is when you own your mistakes, and again, this is where I share in the story. My 14 year old, my 16 year old, they're very, very upfront and apologetic. And sometimes they will come clean on something before I even have a chance to call them out on it. Well, I sit there and I think like man, like, this is incredible. And my wife is like, they get that from you though. Because like you're very upfront and apologetic when you make a mistake. And they're learning that. Right? They're like, they're not trying to dust something underneath the carpet. They're not trying to hide. They're not playing the blame game. Why did this because of this and this and Excuses, excuses. Like they own it. I was like, wow, that's cool. So there's that. So just know that when you own things in front of your kids, you're teaching them ownership, which is cool, right? But here's, here's where you can get more proactive though. I think the proactivity comes in learning skill sets. So I'll give you an example. Anything that we do well in life, anything, right? We go through training, we go through coaching, we go whatever, right? Most people have a four year degree. Well, that's four years of training in an industry that you're going to move into. So like take engineering, for example, if you want to be a civil engineer, you can't not go to college and apply for a civil engineering job and be like, Hey, I love it. I think I want to do this. They'll look at you like you have you don't have a degree you don't have training. We're not hiring you. Yeah, same thing for anything that we do. But if you look at those two worlds of marriage and fatherhood it's Good luck best time your whole life, you'll figure it out. Oh my god, like really like, can you imagine? Can you imagine? If you need a new hip or a knee and your orthopedic surgeon didn't go through his eight years of medical school, two years of resident residency and fellowship, and he was just like, I'll figure it out. Don't worry, let me let me go ahead and cut on you and replace this knee. You'd be like, next place, right? Yeah. Right. So So the moral of the story is fatherhood, and marriage, tactical skill sets that will set you apart from the rest of the people will be like, I'll just figure it out. Don't figure it out. Please don't do that to yourself, learn what to do and how to do it.
Yeah, really well said. So this is where I really value what you do and what you've created. Because I think you've found a way to communicate even some more clinical elements in a way that's just palpable and easy for people to comprehend. Are there any skill sets in particular, in your community that you find a really impactful on the preventative side?
Oh, yeah, so we teach? Well, so like, within marriage, and the same rules apply for your kids. So we teach nine different skill sets. Actually, I have a course on this that men can just do on their own, it's called Creating an extraordinary marriage through elevated communication, connection, and intimacy. gonna teach you nine tactical skills. So like, for instance, just know that your wife has three basic needs. And when these three basic needs are getting met, she feels really fantastic and very fulfilled in the marriage. Those three needs are she needs to feel heard. She needs to feel seen. And she needs to feel safe, right. And men are not usually and we don't do this on purpose. I'm not I'm not downplaying men in their efforts and their nobility. But we don't know that. And we don't know, we don't know. So men, just because of the way we're wired, we're not the best listeners, because we when people start talking, we automatically start thinking about solutions, which is a really great skill to have, but it's not great. When it comes to marriage, what your wife really needs is to feel connected to you to feel heard, seen and safe. And when we go when she starts talking to us, and we start telling her what we think we should do with all of our wonderful words of wisdom and advice. She doesn't feel that way. The other interesting thing, too, is is that our kids have the exact same three needs to feel seen heard and safe as well. So skill sets, like using emotional labeling, using the right voice tone, right? Using a skill set that we call called generative questions, creating an environment of psychological safety. I'll tell you here's another really easy hack or tip. Anytime you want to ask somebody why. Say so like, so like, for instance, if I were to say, why are you wearing that sweater? Or if I say cool sweater, tell me about that. One is, does the like the sweater is kind of accusatory, it doesn't really feel good. The other ones like, oh, wow, he likes my sweater. He's inviting me to tell him where I got it from or what it's all about. Right?
Right. Okay. So how do you how do you learn that like generative questions? Is there a formula to this? Or how do people learn how to ask those questions? Because I, I see what you're saying, That's really incredible. How do people get better at that?
So I've got I've got a free training on it at on our website, called 25 intimate conversation starters. If you just go to the data, edge.com forward slash 25 questions, there's a video training on it. And I give you a PDF of 25 generative questions. So I'll give you an example. How was your day is not a generative question. Right? It's because it's a crappy question within you'll get a one word answer. Good, crazy busy. Whatever. Right? Boring. But if you ask, so that's, that is what I would call a regular run of the mill question. If you just redo the wording in that question a little bit, you'll get a much different answer. And psychologically, let me let me back up for a second, let me explain what a generative question even is a generative question is called a generative question because it generates connection. thoughts, images, ideas, visions, safety, interest, all these different things, right. So like, if I if if I were to say, Hey, how was your day, that really doesn't do that. But if I say, hey, and in the right voice tone, tell me about the best part of your day to day. Right? Tell me tell me why it was so meaningful for you. Right? So what you're doing psychologically for that person is they have to stop what they're doing. Right? They can't just be like, it was good. Like, man, let me think about that. And then what you're actually doing in their mind is you're you're guiding that person into gratitude and excitement, right? And the here's the other cool thing. How do we feel when we get to share something really cool that happened to us or something that we're excited about? How do we feel about that connection and the person that asked us All right, we feel good about that. We're like, oh, man, let me like. And when I asked my kid that to be I like the little ones like my, my nine year old and six year old my nine year old dad, I scored a goal. When we're playing soccer recess today is so cool as I do. That is cool. Like, tell me about that what happened? Like, tell me play by play what happened? And then they'll get excited. And I'm excited. And it's, it creates that connection that we, that we, as human beings so desperately want.
Yeah. Okay. And I guess the the gender of questions help people to be heard, to be seen and to feel safe. Like it kind of plugs back into those three core needs as well. Right?
It totally does. What was if I could give your if you want, I could just give your audience three questions that I love to ask my kids every day. Yeah. And I'll give you I'll give you the reason why for each. So the first question is, tell me about the best part of your day. So you're, you're elevating their energy, you're elevating their content, your connection to them. They're excited to tell you this stuff. And the way you receive that information is you get excited with them. Right genuinely, like Oh, my kid scored a goal, my dude, boom, Heck, yeah, man. Tell me more about that. Right, then they'll tell you. The second question is, tell me something that really challenged you today. Or tell me something that you failed that today. Most parents are really in the you can do this with your wife to most people are really freaked out about failure. But we all know that success or failure is a part of the process. But yeah, and the more you can get a kid or another human being used to talking about their failures as a learning mechanism, the more that they're going to embrace like, Okay, this is just a bump in the road. And I now know what to do. So like if my kids told me that like, yeah, and this is where I manufacture the skill set of psychological safety as well. So if my kid tells me, yeah, so I know, I scored the goal today. But I also got a D on my cultural geography test. That was a low point for me. Now, my dad brain is like, Did I tell you to study for that, like, off your phone like, right? But I don't meet him like that, because that doesn't create an environment of psychological safety, where they're going to tell me more about that. And they don't want to hear me lecture. And they're not going to listen to me lecture. But they'll listen to themselves. So here's what I do. Well, okay, so tell me more about that. I don't say why did you get a D essay? Tell me more about that. Okay, well, you know, there were some, there were some stuff on the test I really wasn't ready for and, you know, I guess I didn't study as hard as I could have. I'm like, Man, that's really, really great information to have. So let me ask you this, if you were able to do the whole process all over again, getting ready for this test and cultural geography. What would you do different? Maybe like, I would have studied more. I thought I had it memorized. I didn't, I would have probably spent more time maybe gotten in a study group or something like that. Maybe even ask the teacher a few more questions I wasn't clear on. That's what I do different. I'd be like, Man, that's, that's awesome. I was like, Okay, well, when is your next test? And what subject and there'll be like, I got a science test next Friday. Okay, great. Based on the information you have, and what we learned, what would you do different getting ready for that test versus this one. And they will articulate this, like all my words of wisdom of like, you better do this, and you better do that. I'm going to check in on you, they will create the recipe for their own success by articulating it themselves. And they did it in this environment where they felt really good about telling dad, the hard stuff because dad didn't blow up. He just guided him through a few more questions with this very curious tone, not a demeaning tone. And they're the ones who are creating the recipe for success, not me, which
is cool. I just want to pause for a sec. How do you how do you? Is there anything that you do in particular to interrupt the the like you mentioned the quote, unquote, Dad brain that wants to be like, Did I tell you, because I imagine like people are hearing this and they're like, that makes that makes so much sense. And I think sometimes we at least have an idea of what we should be doing. How do you bridge that gap?
It's hard. Yeah, it's it is hard, you know, especially if, like, I've nudged my kid all week long be like, Hey, man, we're just gonna test on Friday. Are you ready for it? And there'll be on their phone or there'll be talking to their girlfriend like, yeah, I got it. Dad's cool. And I know that they don't. Yeah, and you know, there's, there's that part of us as parents, we always wanted to do that. I told you so or I knew better. You know, I was ahead of you on this one, that kind of thing. But that doesn't help anything. So the way I look at it is, I'm out for the connection first, versus Right, right, and lecturing. So and here's, here's how this plays out. The more reps that I get in with having conversations like that, the more my kid gets used to the fact that dad's the go to guy versus oh my god, I got a D He can never find out about it. Because here's where here's where the Annie really gets up. Right? It's easy when you got a six year old nine year old 10 year old You got a kid behind the wheel of a car, 16 1718 years old, he goes to the party he's drinking. And he's making the decision. Do I call my father to come pick me up? Or do I get behind the wheel this car, right? I've gotten all these reps in of like, Hey, man, bring all your dirty laundry to me, we'll figure it out. He's gonna pick up that phone, he's gonna call me and I've told my kids that I was like, if you ever call me at 3am in the morning, because you've had too much to drink, and you, I don't care how old you are, or whatever else, you will never be in trouble. Ever. I will quietly come pick you up. We won't say a word about it. I'll bring you home, we'll go back, we'll get your car the next day, we'll have a conversation around it just be like, you know, hey, how can we be ahead of this the next time? It's like, but I'm not going to punish you. So that's what I'm after? Not not being right or wrong on the cultural geography test.
Yeah. Okay. Makes a lot of sense. So tell me about the best part of your day. Tell me something that challenge you today. And then what's the third question?
Third question is what are you most excited about tomorrow? So what that does is after they've told you something that's kind of tough on them, you want to get them wrapped back up again. And here's the other thing, too. I call that the Netflix TO BE CONTINUED question because Netflix has got this incredible way of hooking you in to your you sit down, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna watch one episode of Breaking Bad. And then you watch like, it's because of that last 30 seconds, you're like, Well, I got to start the next one and see what happens. And then you're watching like eight of them. So that the, what are you most excited about tomorrow? Like, they'll tell me like I have. I've got the I've got the one mile fitness test tomorrow, like, and I'm really excited to see how quick I can run that mile. What do you think I'm gonna ask him about the very next day? Right? Because interested? People are interesting. So the more context I have about what are my kids really revved up, revved up about the next day? And then they see me I'm like, Dude, how did the mile go? Right? And then like, man, like, Dad, he's not just like this authority figure. He's, he's doing life with me. He's interested in me, the things that excite me excite him, that's the message and that question.
Makes a lot of sense. And these three questions, you said it'd be good for kids wife, whatever, or is it kids in particular?
I mean, kids, it's great. But any human being on the planet? Like, these are great questions, right? And then also, depending on like, you know, the second question with your wife, like, what's the most challenging part of your day? It's really, you know, I would say with a kid, you're asking them questions to guide them to a solution. With my wife, I don't really do that. So with my wife, if she's like, Oh, my God, like Colton was driving me crazy day, he spilled his milk. And then I forgot to pay the water bill, I had to call the water company. What I'll do with that, is I just simply, emotionally labeled what I think she's feeling. So I'm like, oh, man, that's overwhelming, who wouldn't be overwhelmed? Tell me more about that. That's it, right? It's just like, because what I'm doing in that moment is when I label an emotion, and I normalize it, so if I say, Man, that's overwhelming, who wouldn't be overwhelmed? Tell me more about that. She feels seen heard and safe. Right? That's like the 123 punch right there. Okay,
that's amazing. So why, why is psychological safety so important? Because I've heard you mentioned that a couple of times now. And it's very clear that like, if you can really master generative questions, and obviously, you know, you've worked through some of your stuff from the past, and the trauma and all that, like, you can kind of see how, like, creating an environment of safety is pretty valuable. Why why exactly.
So people, you know, if you were raised, it doesn't matter if you were raised in an environment without psychological safety, or if you've been in relationships, that you don't have psychological safety, emotional, and physical relationships that have abuse don't have psychological safety. It the easiest way to test whether or not your relationship has psychological safety or not, is if I bring this up to my my wife, my kids, my my manager, or my friend or whatever. Is this going to be met with guilt, shame, blame and pain? Or is this going to be met with empathy, and understanding and tell me more about that? That's the difference. So when people feel psychologically safe, to share things, whether it's questions, ideas, struggles, whatever it is, they feel really good about the relationship. They feel very good about you. They feel very good about the relationship. And they don't, they don't feel desperate, they don't feel alone. They feel like they have you know, a partner in crime, a battle, buddy, whatever it is, and again, these relationships are everywhere. They're in our own family, marriages, the workplace friendships, siblings everywhere.
Okay, so if so, if somebody if somebody's hearing it and they're like, Okay, I think I think I would need to, you know, create more psychological safety in my relationships. The genitive question sounds like really, really important. And then you kind of you rattle off a couple of things there like that. It sounds like it was trying to avoid things that induce guilt, shame, blame pain. Is there is there anything else that you would give people guidance on? Unlike, here's how you keep somebody's defenses down so that they can actually have an honest conversation with you.
Totally. So the way the first step, right, is just to listen, when someone's talking, and, and sometimes this is difficult, because sometimes the, the subject could be something you're doing. Like, right, so like, my wife could come to me and say, We there's a real conversation. And so my wife, she's pretty good about giving me very bold feedback, or if something that she needs, because she knows I'm going to receive it. We've got that history. But there are other times where she hints at it, right? And she thinks I'm gonna pick up on it. And sometimes I'm again, idiot, moron, sometimes I don't get it. Sure. And so she, she did it earlier than her. And I take my, my, my bigger kids to school, she's at home with a little with a little boys, my 96 year old, so she makes breakfast for them every morning, every morning, because I'm not here. I'm taking the older ones at school. And on the weekends, what do the little ones do? Because usually, again, I'm either up before her I'm at the gym. Or if I'm still in bed with her, if they get up a little earlier, they will walk around to her side of the bed. And they'll be like, Hey, Mom, can you make me some breakfast and she gets up and does it? And this sounds very inconsiderate. But I've just like it's never really hit my radar that maybe I should do that on the weekends. It just. And that's again, being a dumb guy. And my wife, I asked her not too long ago, I was like, hey, share something with me, that's hard for you to share that you'd maybe think I don't see or understand. Now, that's a question where I'm actually manufacturing psychological safety. And, um, she could come at me with something and I need to be ready for it. And she's like, well, I've hinted to you that I've really, really wanted you to make breakfast for the kids on the weekends and just allow me to sleep every now and again. But it hasn't really landed. And she'll say it with a smile, and she does not sarcastic about it. And yeah, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, you have she goes, Yeah, I have no, it's like, oh my god, I was like, I probably look like one of the most insensitive jerks like that I just it just hasn't landed. And she's like, kinda she's like, I was like, Look, I was like, you just know, every now and again, you need to be blunt with me. I was like, you know, I I will absolutely do. And this weekend, you know, I told her I was like sleeping, um, I will make breakfast for the kids. I'll stay home and till they wake up and all that other good stuff. But going back to your to your question, you know, why is this important? And that's because when people don't feel safe in a relationship, and they, they, they don't feel good about telling you something that's hard, they get resentful. And when they get resentful, they get distant. And when they get distance, that's when relationships start to crumble. So anyway, back to what you're saying. You got to be willing to listen, that's number one. Step number two is validate. So like in that, in that scenario, I told my wife, I was like, God, I must have come across as a total insensitive jerk. Right? I'm validating the feelings as you might be feeling, right. Yeah. And then step two is, you know, how can you know? Is there an opportunity for us to make this better? Or do you want me just to continue to listen or whatever. And in that instance, it was like the opportunity to make it better was for me to to go do the thing. Right? For
sure. Yeah. Yeah. I love that, man. It's really good. So I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you a little bit about the whole pornography issue and how it might tie in to some of these things. We talked earlier about, you know, how I think when, when kids have when you have an experience as a kid, especially a negative one, you know, there's always a thing in your head that's like, Oh, I'm going to do better when I'm an adult, or I'm going to do better as a father. And for a lot of our listeners, it's like, man, pornography has derailed so many areas of my life. And I'm, I'm doing better for myself, for sure. But I also don't want my kids to fall into the same thing. And repeat the pattern. How have you been handling the conversations around sex and pornography and device usage? And that kind of stuff? What does it look like? I'm just asking broadly, I don't know if maybe you have anything specific, but I'm just curious how you've handled that area.
I mean, I'm happy to give you my own story with it. Because the lowest hanging fruit vise is pornography for men. I mean, you know that so do I, like a guy can say no to a beer, a guy can say no to drugs. But when it comes to porn, you know, I think a lot of it, we're under the impression Well, it's not hurting anybody. And you know, I remember like, early on in my marriage, like I actually thought I'm like, wow, this is actually a favorite of my wife. Like, I don't have to bother her for sex. I can just take care of myself in between the times I'm waiting for us to have sex. You Yeah, it's ridiculous. Like I think about that now. But my story with pornography alone was I was nine first time I saw it. And I was staying with a family member. And this individual thought it would be funny to just pop in a VHS tape because we're gonna watch a movie. And he's popped into VHS tape. And I saw a woman giving a guy a blowjob and then get on top of them. And I was like, and at first I was like, What? What am I watching here? What's going on? And he was just laughing. He thought it was hysterical when I remember closing my eyes, because it freaked me out, like at night, like you really don't know about it at nine. And I was like, I thought they were hurting each other. Like it was all kinds of crazy things ran through my head. But I will tell you made me very curious about like, what did I just see? And then I just, you know, that was like, my advice growing up was that and as I've gotten older, I've, I've completely gotten away from it. And but I think if you just rethink of it like this, because this is what really was the nail in the coffin for me to be like, I'm not doing this, like I'm done with this. And I can't even remember the last time I watched it, that's how long it's been. But I will tell you, the nail in the coffin for me was, first of all, removing the shame from it. Like, I would feel so so shameful that I was even tempted by it. And I'm like, wait a second. I'm a sexual human being like I'm a sexual being. And that's why God made me like he made me. So when I see a beautiful woman, I'm triggered because I want to reproduce. That's just the way I'm wired. There should be no shame in that. The shame comes is when I dive into that temptation, say yes to it, right? But feeling shame that I want sex or that, whatever, I don't feel shame with that anymore. I'm like, yep, there it is. I'm a human being. And I'm still a man. Right. But I will tell you, and I'm still tempted by it to this day, that temptation hasn't totally gone away. I would say it's minimal, but it hasn't totally gone away. I don't know if it ever does. But I will tell you, I have a list of 10 things that I do. If I'm tempted by it. Why don't I do those things instead. So for me, it's like a redirection of energy. It's like, okay, I'm triggered, and I feel it. So okay, I can, I can send a text to my son, I can write a note to my wife, I can send one of my members a brand new hat that we have, like, I can do something nice for somebody else, take this energy and do something good with it. But here's, here's where the Christianity thing really, really, I think plays a part for me. I believe God is a forgiving God. I'm very deep within my faith, by by no means am I perfect. But I had somebody tell me this story. And I don't know, it's it's not right. It's not wrong. I don't know what it is. But it's a perception that I have in my mind, that keeps me on the straight and narrow. So I have this, I have this view that when I die, I'm gonna go meet Christ, and I'm going to meet God, and they're gonna be like, right there, like you did pretty well. You know? Do you have any other lingering sins? Do you ask for forgiveness? I'm like, Yes, of course I do. Okay, great. Well, here before you enter into heaven, I want to show you something. This is the conversation I don't want to have with God. All right, Larry, here's the thing, here's your life. Here's all the time you spent at work, here's all the time you spent in fitness, here's all the time you spent with your wife, your kids, Dad edge, all this stuff. And here's all the time you spent in porn, all these minutes all these hours, if you would have allocated just half of these hours, or just a little bit of these hours into relationship with your kids, this, this would have happened. Or if you would have put this into your next book, you would have been a New York Times best seller. But instead you wasted over here. I don't want to have to answer to that. I don't know what it is about that vision. But I'm like, I don't want time is the most precious commodity, we can always make more money, we can't get back more time. And I do not want to waste one more minute on something that I could go positively impact somebody else's life, in my own life or whatever else on watching useless crap like that. That's my view of it.
That's powerful man, it really speaks to the power of having a vision, right. And we always I always tell my guys this because I'm like, There's no such thing as right or wrong motivation. If it motivates, you just use it, you know, leverage it. So I love that. Man, we're running out of time here and I want I want to make sure people get a chance to connect with you. We'll put links in the show notes to all the courses that you've mentioned. But But how else can people find out more about what you're up to Larry?
Yeah, I mean, I'm the dad edge is every you know, everywhere I would say you know, Instagram and social and all that. And then the data, the data edge.com Not data, check, COMM The data edge.com If you just go to our resources tab on the nav bar, I've got a few free trainings in there for you that are video based and PDF. So like one is full presence and purpose training. So it's like how do I how do I most men will always tell me like hey, man, like how do I get more intentional present with my kids? And those are just words, but I give you actually tactical things physically mentally emotional things you can do in the presence of your kids to get you grounded and your boots. And so that's a free training 21 days to an extraordinary marriage. That's a free training and then 25 intimate conversation starters, that's a training on generative questions. Most if I did a training on like, here's a training on gender of questions people be like, I don't even know what that is. intimate conversation starters, sign me up for that same thing.
Yeah, that's true. Okay, amazing. Well, it's, it's no surprise, you've had such an impact, man, because your story is incredible. You really just have a gift of embodying the message of you know, just being psychologically safe, and, and super sound. And you're really practical. So we'll make sure we get links to all this stuff in the show notes. But in the meantime, man, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.
Thank you back.
All right, well, that was amazing. Oh, my gosh, I learned so much. I would go back personally, like even just the back half after we get through his story in the tactical stuff. You guys know me, I'm all about that stuff. And I would I would go back and listen to that a couple times. Because the generative questions and you know, kind of the contrast between asking why did you do this versus I noticed that it? Was there a reason for it, or again, I have not mastered this the way Larry has. But you know what I mean? Like, some of those things are just so, so profound, and they seem so small and insignificant. And it's not because Larry's like this master linguist, it's really about helping people feel safe, so that you can build the connection that you actually longed to have with them. And we know that the opposite of addiction is connection. That's where all of this starts and ends. And the other thing I'll just say, guys, is like when somebody with this kind of wisdom, and this level of Revelation, comes onto a podcast and is willing to give resources away for free, you would be absolutely crazy to not go get your hands on them. So we put links in the show notes to all of his material, please, please, please, please go check it out. His book, his courses, the generative questions, all that kind of stuff. It's all there. And and I just don't see any reason why you wouldn't get your your hands on it, excuse me. And the last thing I want to mention is if you are really looking for help with porn addiction, specifically, I want to just encourage you and let you know that whether this year has been a good start so far, whether it's been a little bit of tough, tougher, there's no time like the present to take things to the next level. And we'd love to be a part of that journey. If you're willing to let us the easiest way to get started with us is if you're listening to this podcast, you're already there. So the second step typically, is people book a call with someone on our team. To find out more about our program, we'd like to find out more about you and your story. And then when together we can kind of explore if it makes sense for us to participate in the program alongside each other. If it doesn't, then we can redirect you elsewhere. But I would love to sit down with you or somebody on my team would love to sit down with you and and see if it's a good fit. So there's a link in the show notes for that as well guys, book a time with us. We'd love to speak with you soon. In the meantime, have a great day. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk soon. Bye bye. Hey, everybody, its Sathiya again. Thanks for listening to unleash the man with them. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about a free ebook that I wrote for you called The Ultimate Guide to porn recovery. It provides a basic framework for the recovery process, and a few of my top tips completely free of charge. You can get it now at www dot ultimate recovery guide.com. That's www ultimate recovery guide.com. Now if you've been impacted by the podcast, and you want to show some support in less than 60 seconds, there are three ways you can do that. First, you can leave a rating or review on your podcast platform. This lets people like you know that the content here is valuable. Secondly, you can share this episode with someone in your life that might benefit from the content. If you're passionate about helping other people experience freedom and success in their lives. This is one of the easiest ways to do that. And lastly, you can subscribe. I personally only listen to the podcasts that I subscribe to. If you're seeking daily encouragement, guidance and insight in your recovery journey. I highly recommend subscribing to unleash the man within. Thanks for listening. I look forward to connecting with you very very soon.
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